Transport Committee on Nov. 7th, 2024

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

It's a pleasure to be on a new committee for a little while this afternoon.

Sergeant Moffatt, first, thank you very much for your service. I know it's difficult to be in your line of work these days, but I appreciate what you do for the community.

[Sgt Dave Moffatt]

Thank you, sir.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

I just want to stick with you a bit with respect to the issue of flares. You mentioned that flares will expire four years after being issued. In your experience, what are you seeing now in terms of how people are able to dispose of them?

[Sgt Dave Moffatt]

As I said before, landfills are huge. People think they can just throw them in the garbage, and they're disposed of. There are some toxic chemicals in flares.

What I'm really concerned about is.... We talk about the stories of people trying to get rid of these flares. We are called all the time, and people come to our detachments to drop them off. We don't have a solution for them, and it's disheartening for community members. To put these flares in a box in the corner of the garage is dangerous.

We've had flare disposal days. We've had a program with CIL where they have people come in to grab flares and dispose of them properly. Back in the day, the OPP bomb techs used to take them. We don't do that anymore. It's not their mandate. There are so many things they needed to do, so we got rid of that program. There really is no place out there the public can go to.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

You would consider it not only an environmental issue but also primarily a public safety issue, since people do not have the traditional way to dispose of flares. Is that correct?

[Sgt Dave Moffatt]

One hundred per cent, yes.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

My understanding is that the program didn't cost very much money, but it gave people a local depot or local collector to go to, which would make sure flares made their way to a professional disposal service. Is that what you're requesting to be reinstated?

[Sgt Dave Moffatt]

Yes, exactly. The number of flares they got from the public, which are disposed of properly, are in the thousands at each site. What we also need, if that is reinstated, is more disposal sites across the country, because they seem to be, in Ontario, more in the southern end of Ontario. We need access in northern Ontario as well.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you very much for the testimony on flares.

I'll note that my area—Georgian Bay, Lake Simcoe, Lake Couchiching, the Trent-Severn Waterway—has probably one of the busiest waterways, given the number of boats, in the entire country. My office has been inundated with calls from people, mostly frustrated, trying to understand what they can do today with those flares.

Do you have any recommendation for what they can do today with expired flares?

[Sgt Dave Moffatt]

We really don't, and that's what's so frustrating. We're trying to help people out, but we say that they can't fire them off. It's illegal under the Canada Shipping Act. They can't throw them overboard. It's environmentally irresponsible. Can they put them in a bucket of water and make them less volatile? They could do that, but we also say that they have to store them away from their property because you never know what's going to happen.

I wish I had an answer and I don't. That's frustrating.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

That's fair. As a boater and as someone who has expired flares, I share your frustration.

To go back to licensing for a moment, when I did my boater's test, I was maybe 13 or 14 years old. You had to do it in person and under supervision—physically. It was under the supervision of an licensed or predetermined, approved examiner.

[Sgt Dave Moffatt]

It was BOATsmart.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Yes, exactly. Would you recommend at least going back to the in-person requirement? Is that part of your recommendation?

[Sgt Dave Moffatt]

If there's a training piece to it as well, then yes, absolutely.

As Ms. Creighton mentioned, there's the integrity piece. There are a lot of stories out there that people had other people write their tests for them. There is supposed to be a proctor. I don't know what that means. I don't know how that works, but we definitely need a better system.

[Adam Chambers, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you very much for your testimony.

I want to keep us on time, for the chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chambers. We greatly appreciate that. I'd now like to invite you to join the committee permanently for being the only one who keeps it on time.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Mr. Lauzon, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First of all, I'd like to thank all the witnesses for joining us today.

I'm going to start with you, Sergeant Moffatt, since you have to leave the meeting soon.

I'd like to come back to the issue of the mandatory wearing of life jackets. You would like that to be included in our recommendations.

I remind you that in 1970, Ontario was the first province to require motorists to wear seat belts. At the time, it was thought that imposing such a thing was impossible. Today, wearing a seat belt has become a daily habit.

Do you think this committee should include that recommendation in its report and call on the government to mandate that all boaters wear life jackets? That measure would inconvenience them at first, but then it would become a habit.

[Sgt Dave Moffatt]

Ideally, sir, yes. However, I'm trying to be realistic.

I'm looking at statistics from throughout Ontario and Canada, and it's not the big vessels. We know that 88% of our fatalities are on vessels six metres long and under. I'm trying to be realistic.

The big vessels we're talking about have sleeping berths. We're talking about inside cuddies. It would make way more sense in the smaller types of vessels, like canoes, kayaks, small fishing boats, pontoon boats, etc. That's where we're going with the OPP.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

Thank you for clarifying that. The use of life jackets on stable boats, such as pontoon boats or pleasure craft with sleeping quarters, is not as necessary as wearing a seat belt in a car. I understand that quite well.

So you're talking about small boats, but what other guidelines would you include in the recommendation for the mandatory wearing of life jackets? For example, what size of boat and what engine power would we be talking about? Would this obligation apply to the individual practice of all water sports? We need guidelines or tools to know where to draw the line, if we want to implement such an obligation.

Do you have any recommendations on that?

[Sgt Dave Moffatt]

There are three options, really. One is the size of the vessel. One is the time of the year. The other one is age.

I can dispel the age piece because we've kept 13 years of statistics. Our fatalities that involved children 14 years and under make up 2% of all fatalities. That's not the demographic. Is it because the parents are making these kids wear them? That's one of the big issues on Let's Talk Transportation. People want kids to wear them all the time.

When we look at those three items, it is about size. We are doing testing right now about the weather and temperature. It's not about people falling in cold water. It's about gasping. It's about entering the water involuntarily and taking in a gasp of water. It doesn't matter what the temperature is. People think it's all about cold water. They think between November and April, they'll wear life jackets. We at the OPP know Georgian Bay is cold year round.

We would like to see less stable vessels, where people are losing their lives.... We have the stats for vessels at six metres and under, which is about 19 feet and under—those vessel types. They show that 88% of fatalities are from people on vessels under six metres.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

Thank you, Sergeant Moffatt.

My next question is for Elliot's mother. I must say that today is the first time I've seen a baby attend a committee meeting.

Ms. Mercier‑Blais, you talked a lot about your studies on the effects of wake boats. I think you've heard the discussions on regulations that took place at the committee's last meetings. We're still discussing it today. There is a process to make regulatory changes. In the case of Lake Memphremagog, certain requests for regulatory amendments have already been made.

I know that it can take a long time to obtain the right to legislate certain waterways. Nonetheless, current regulations make it possible to set guidelines and speeds to be obeyed.

In your opinion, will the regulations we've set up prevent wake boat waves from harming shorelines and the marine environment?

[Sara Mercier-Blais]

Certainly, that type of regulation is much harder to enforce. As Sergeant Moffatt mentioned, it's hard to tell exactly where the 300-metre demarcation is.

However, I think having signs onsite posting the rules that people can see will remind them to stay within the limits. They may be boating somewhat within the 300-metre zone from the shoreline, but it could still help raise awareness during the process.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Lauzon. Time certainly does fly.

I now give the floor to Mr. Barsalou‑Duval for two and a half minutes.