Transport Committee on Dec. 5th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 142 of the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities.

I want to begin by acknowledging that we are gathered on the ancestral and unceded territories of the Algonquin Anishinabe people. I want to express gratitude that we're able to do the important work of this committee on lands they've stewarded since time immemorial.

Before we begin the meeting, I want to remind all in-person participants to read the best-practice guidelines on the cards on the table. These measures are in place to protect the health and safety of all participants.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Thursday, November 21, 2024, the committee resumes its study of environmental contamination in the vicinity of the dock in Fort Chipewyan.

All witnesses have completed the required connection tests in advance of the meeting.

Colleagues, I'd like to now welcome our witnesses.

Appearing before us today is the Honourable Anita Anand, Minister of Transport. From the Department of Transport, we have Mr. Arun Thangaraj, deputy minister. We also have Stephanie Hébert, assistant deputy minister, programs.

Welcome to all of you.

Minister, I'm going to turn the floor over to you for your opening remarks. I know you've shortened them because you have a hard stop at 4:30. We greatly appreciate your giving more time for our members to ask questions.

The floor is yours.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Minister of Transport]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I also want to thank the members of the committee.

Thank you so much for inviting me here today, and for speaking about these issues. I'd like to thank the committee for its work.

I'd also like to thank the Fort Chipewyan Métis Nation, the Athabasca Chipewyan First Nation and the Mikisew Cree First Nation for their testimony and for their work.

I'm going to forgo my remarks, Mr. Chair, in the interest of time, so that committee members have the greatest opportunity to ask their questions before I have to leave.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Minister.

We'll begin our line of questioning today with Mr. Lawrence.

Mr. Lawrence, the floor is yours, sir. You have six minutes.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

That's perfect.

Thank you, Minister, for appearing. When I was questioning Minister Freeland, she referred to “ritualized jousting”. That is not my intent today. My intent is to have an honest dialogue that is hopeful and that—hopefully, in some small way—moves reconciliation along.

My first question is as follows: We heard shocking and disappointing testimony from local indigenous leaders on Tuesday. They, of course, were beyond frustrated and were concerned about contamination at the big dock.

Minister, first of all, I think it's important that we have shared, agreed-upon facts.

Would you agree with the indigenous leaders and the toxicologist who testified on Tuesday that the “Big Dock” and its immediate vicinity are contaminated?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Based on the evidence we have, there is no risk to human health, but the 2017 study needs to be updated.

I have established a single point of contact at Transport Canada to be the person, in addition to me, undertaking this work in consultation with the three nations.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

The toxicologist, though, and the indigenous leaders were pretty clear that it is contaminated. In your own letter, you agreed it is contaminated.

Would you agree that the big dock and its immediate vicinity are contaminated?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

The focus I have right now is to ensure we are addressing the concerns of the three nations. Yes, we need to make sure that any contamination in the area is addressed.

I'll ask my deputy minister if he has anything to add.

[Arun Thangaraj, Deputy Minister, Department of Transport]

I think the evidence there clearly outlines the issues and the contamination at the dock and water lot. In those reports, we took into account the various uses. As the minister said, we are committed to moving forward and addressing those issues.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Thank you.

The toxicologist on Tuesday disagreed that the consultant had appropriately taken the uses into consideration. I'll quote from her testimony:

The main technical inaccuracy identified in my review of the risk assessment conducted by the third-party consultants—which would have limited its usefulness in managing health risks and determining remedial objectives, which was the stated intent—is that the consultant incorrectly classified the site as commercial use, effectively limiting the assessment of human exposure, which is inaccurate given the reliance of community members on Big Dock for their traditional way of life.

In other words, what the toxicologist is saying is that there are different standards, and understandably so, for a commercial dock versus a place where people swim, fish and even drink the water.

Is it your evidence that an assessment has accurately taken this in? Do you disagree with the toxicologist that this has been held to the same standard as a recreational area or an area where fishing and swimming go on?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

The reports I have read agree that there has been contamination, while at the same time they state that there's no evidence of harm to human health. What I want to do is update the 2017 study to ensure that this evidence is updated and to ensure that the three nations have the opportunity to engage in the process themselves. That is a commitment I made to them during our first call, during our meeting yesterday. I've given them my personal phone number, and it must be done in partnership, utilizing indigenous methodologies as well.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

I appreciate that. Once again, I repeat that my objective today is not to point fingers, but I think it is important to establish the fact that none of the reports conducted so far have taken into account the recreational use and the traditional way of life of the nations that have utilized these waters since time immemorial.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

There is a purpose in doing the update in partnership with indigenous communities and they can ensure that the study covers the issues that they want. The 2017 study did take into account swimming, fishing and boat launching. It is common practice to update such studies every five to 10 years, but updating must be done in consultation, and that is my commitment as minister.

As soon as I came into this portfolio at the end of September, I wanted to make sure the Fort Chipewyan Métis Nation, the Athabasca Chipewyan First Nation and the Mikisew Cree First Nation knew that I was very serious about taking their concerns into account.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

My other significant concern, other than the contamination, is the lack of notification.

We did receive correspondence from Transport Canada. However, the Transport Canada correspondence simply showed that environmental assessments were provided in a database that was only accessible for a week. It lumped in with a large amount of due diligence surrounding the divestiture of the Big Dock.

Was there any specific contamination? Did anyone pick up the phone? Did anyone go visit any of the nations and say that there is a serious problem, that there is significant contamination where their children are swimming and where they are fishing?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

There were 12 historical reports, and there are attempts now to do better than we have done so far. Of course, I just came into the portfolio a little over two months ago, but I've stressed to my department officials, who are here with me today, that we need to be more proactive going forward, and we need to make sure that the reports are made available as soon as possible.

The documents have been loaded onto a website, and there will be more proactive measures going forward, including, as I said, from the fact that I've shared my personal contact information. At any point, when the process is not proceeding in the way the nations want, they will be able to contact me. I have invited them to do so, so that I can address that with the department...I apologize.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

No apologies are necessary, Minister. Thank you very much.

Next we'll go to Mr. Rogers.

Mr. Rogers, the floor is yours. You have six minutes, sir.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Thank you, Chair.

Welcome, Minister and officials.

Minister, on Tuesday we heard from some of the witnesses here that there's a problem around contamination. There's a problem around the infrastructure of the Big Dock.

The other issue we heard about from, I think, Chief Adam, was that if there's a wildfire, if there's an emergency, this is the communities' way to get out of there. This is their emergency escape route. How can the communities at Fort Chipewyan evacuate in case of a wildfire? That's my concern.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I'm glad you raised that point, because it's a concern that I have discussed with them as well. Certainly, evacuation plans in the event of an emergency are extremely serious now because of the effects of climate change. I've reached out to Minister Hajdu and I've reached out to Minister Sajjan. Both of them have responsibilities, respectively with indigenous services and with emergency preparedness. They have assured us that aerial evacuation plans, through the use of helicopters if required, are in place and are approved for emergency evacuation, even if the airport itself is unavailable.

At the same time, the nations raised with me the possibility of establishing road access, and I am discussing that possibility of Parks Canada access with Minister Guilbeault now, and discussing with others in our government to see what might be possible.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Minister, one thing you said earlier was that you've engaged with these leaders and are trying to make sure you engage in lots of consultation going forward. That's extremely important. I think what's happened in the past is unfortunate in some cases, but engagement and consultation going forward to find solutions are critically important.

Minister, the testimony from the first nations chiefs on Tuesday was a bit disheartening as well, in terms of some of the things they're dealing with in this problem. We've heard that the situation has caused mental and emotional distress for the community members, and you could easily detect that in their testimony.

Can you share with us how you plan to address this as well?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Most definitely: I've been in touch with Indigenous Services Canada, and Minister Hajdu in particular.

I have shared the community's concerns. I have advocated for more mental health supports to be provided to the community to address the stress and the trauma that arise because of these events, and I understand that Indigenous Services officials have noted that they are ready and they're willing to meet with the nations' representatives to discuss options for support.

Again, Indigenous Services Canada and Minister Hajdu are ready to support.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Thank you very much, Minister.

Do I have time left, Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

You have two and a half minutes.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

I'm going to share that time with my colleague Mr. Badawey.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Go ahead, Mr. Badawey.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Rogers.

Minister, we've had a great deal of discussion with the folks from Fort Chipewyan in the last couple of days. I want to give them a lot of credit for being down here and spending the whole week down here to really let us know what their expectations are.

You made it very clear today that part of those expectations is that this would be community driven. They will lead the process. We would simply be a resource to them to fulfill what the desires are in terms of dealing with these challenges.

You didn't get a chance to say much in your opening statement, and I know you wanted to touch on a few of those issues they brought to your attention. Allow me to give you that opportunity now.