Transport Committee on Oct. 19th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Morel-Laforce.

Thank you, Mr. Strahl.

Next we have Mr. Iacono.

Mr. Iacono, you have five minutes.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the witnesses for being with us here this evening.

My first question is for Mr. Morel‑Laforce.

Which areas in the marine transportation sector are suffering the most from a shortage of workers?

And for what reasons?

[Maguessa Morel-Laforce]

Recruitment for every position on the ships is critical, and that's from the cook to your ordinary seaman, not to mention the more specialized trades. All job categories are currently in demand. No one has a surfeit of workers.

It can take up to five months to train a seaman and cost up to $50,000. A good number of the training centres are in the United States. Employers incur costs to simply have a cook that can feed their crews, for example.

When you're talking about the more specialized trades, training takes more time. To train a ship captain, you need six to eight years.

The shortages are everywhere. We were talking earlier about sectors poaching employees from one another. That's similar to what is going on a ship in all job categories.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

At the beginning of your answer, you said that it was the case for all job categories.

We are now coming to the end of the COVID‑19 pandemic. But what was the situation in terms of labour shortages before 2019?

Three or four years ago, what did you do to try to fix the problem if it already existed? Did the problem only crop up after the pandemic?

[Maguessa Morel-Laforce]

Our members had to abide by the regulations in place during the COVID‑19 pandemic. This period was more difficult for sailors on board ships, because they couldn't go offshore when their vessels were docked. A large proportion of our workers were quickly vaccinated and followed protocols. In that respect, our national supply chain was not affected.

The industry is really trying to promote itself. The Imagine Marine program is working on promoting the industry and is offering opportunities to the young and less young who are looking for a career. Salaries start at $60,000. You can earn up to $200,000 in the marine sector.

The industry is also trying to adapt to the situation. For example, rotation times between sea and shore are shorter. However, the current federal regulations are hindering us quite a bit.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

How are new technology and automation changing the labour situation?

I was in Taiwan last week. From what I learned over there, businesses used to need 40 employees per shift. Since making the transition towards new technology, they only need 18 employees per shift. That has had a huge impact.

What do you say to that?

[Maguessa Morel-Laforce]

The number of seamen on board has already been reduced over the past few years. We are already using technology. What improvements need to be made would come from amending the regulations so that they are as up to date as the technology on board the ships. What's more, you would certainly need to conduct better industry consultations when the time comes to put regulations in place.

For example, Employment and Social Development Canada brought in new regulations recently that aren't consistent with those of Transport Canada. The industry is grappling with two sets of regulations that pertain to seamen and that don't say the same thing. When we ask for clarification, neither of the two departments want to say which set of regulations takes precedence in certain fields. That increases costs to the industry and creates problems, and we aren't really seeing any concrete results.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you, that's great.

My next question is for Mr. Corey and Mr. Buy.

In what measure are the various orders of government in Canada working together to help fix labour shortages? Is there a coordinated approach?

[John Corey]

I would say that, at this time, there's not much coordination, which is at the root of the problem. I think there needs to be more coordination throughout all levels of government to address this issue.

Thank you.

[Serge Buy]

Our sector is federally regulated, sir. This comes back to the federal government and federal regulations.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you.

My next question...

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Unfortunately, that is the end of your time, Mr. Iacono.

Thank you.

Mr. Barsalou-Duval, you have two and a half minutes.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have a question for Mr. Corey, because earlier I was talking about adopting new technology. This is related to what Mr. Iacono was saying.

In the sectors that you represent, can automation and new technology be part of the solution, too? Do you have any examples to give us?

[John Corey]

I think that is part of the answer. Technology, as the example given.... Reducing the number of people on board a ship through the use of technology is helpful. I was recently at a member's facility where they now have robots stuffing and packing pallets. That takes the place of multiple people. In fact, unfortunately or fortunately, the robots do a better job of packing, because it's quicker and there are no breaks—they can work 24-7. There are some technologies that can help.

Having said that, the problem with labour, generally, is.... Just because fewer people are working in transportation, that doesn't mean there are fewer people working. There are other sectors where people can work. Technology, I think, is something that is inevitable; it's something we're going to deal with. It's not something that's going to change. I think embracing it is the way to go. Yes, it can help alleviate the number of employees required in transportation.

Thank you.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

I don't know how much time I have left. Sometimes I get my knuckles rapped.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

You have 45 seconds.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Right.

In that case, Mr. Buy, do you have anything to add to our discussion?

[Serge Buy]

The only thing I would add, is that there are solutions that could help improve the situation, especially when it comes to federal regulations. We could certainly sign international agreements. Some solutions have been requested and they wouldn't cost millions of dollars. If you look at our recommendations, you will see that some of them could be put into place quite quickly. That could give us breathing space for a while. It would be great if the committee looked at some of our recommendations and put them in place.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you, Mr. Barsalou-Duval.

Next, we have Mr. Bachrach.

Mr. Bachrach, the floor is yours. You have two and a half minutes.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Corey, earlier you had some remarks about the rail sector and some of the retention challenges and concerns around conditions of work. In northwest B.C. there are hundreds of men and women who work on the trains. I talked to one gentleman recently who was relatively new to the industry, and he quit and moved to another sector because he was concerned for his safety. I also hear about the challenges of scheduling, the lack of fatigue management, and a whole host of other concerns. It's something this committee has done work on in the past year.

I'm wondering to what degree the safety culture in the rail sector and the safety performance of rail companies need to improve in order to retain and attract workers to that sector.

[John Corey]

Both Canadian railways, CN and CP, often tout their safety records, but in reality I think they could do a lot more to make it a safe workplace. Much of that burden is borne by those employees. As you point out, many employees who think the rail industry is a good place to work find out that maybe it's not the best place they want to work in.

Again, railways are driven by their operating ratios and meeting their quarterly numbers. That means “if we can save some money, let's do it”, and it often means cutting the workforce to achieve that quickly. That's very short-sighted, and it has consequences going forward. One of them is the poor performance of the railway, but also the safety of the employees.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Are there regulations that the federal government could put in place to address those things?

[John Corey]

There probably are regulations already in place. The question is whether they are enforced.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you, Mr. Bachrach.

Next we go back to Dr. Lewis.

Dr. Lewis, the floor is yours. You have five minutes.