Transport Committee on Oct. 19th, 2022

[Maguessa Morel-Laforce]

I'll definitely second that. Having a secretariat that would work with several departments that are involved in the supply chain and in solving issues as they come is a great idea. It needs to be provided resources to take place. That's the key part. We need to follow up on the recommendations of the task force. They went out and listened to the industry, and it's reflective of that. I'm hearing lots of positive feedback about it. The next step is to actually implement it.

On the labour side, during the summit there was a specialized program launched through ESDC, on which we are still awaiting announcements. What I hear is that there's a billion dollars’ worth of ask and only $300 million available for it. That shows that there's a lack of investment on the labour side from the federal government. We should definitely increase it so that we don't run out of specialized workers to man ships in Canada.

[Serge Buy]

The report was good, with lots of great recommendations, but we're keen on seeing the actions coming out of that rather than just the report. Having a czar and a secretariat is also great. We're having issues manning other departments right now, so I don't know about creating a big bureaucracy on top of everything. I don't know that the solution to everything is to create a new secretariat and everything, so I'm a little bit careful on this.

The main thing right now is action. I look forward to the implementation of some of the recommendations.

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Thank you.

Moving over to the marine sector, Monsieur Morel-Laforce and Monsieur Buy, are there aspects of labour shortages in the marine transport sector that are particularly unique as compared with other modes?

[Maguessa Morel-Laforce]

It's about being known by the general population, I think. Recent surveys by SODES in Quebec showed that about 40% of the population is unaware of the sector completely. If you translate that to young Canadians, or Canadians looking for a second career, they're mostly in that category. They don't know that the sector has great offerings for them or that it offers the possibility of a rapidly good-paying job. They're just unaware of the sector.

Building that awareness is key to building the pipeline of workers for the industry.

[Serge Buy]

The awareness is one thing. Every industry, right now, is competing for workers. If we take more workers from the Canadian population, we're going to limit it for another industry.

The issue is immigration. Are we unique on that point? There's a certain uniqueness to the marine sector, in terms of our ability to train at a training institution, and for those trainees to remain in Canada. There is the ability to do hybrid training, as well. These are fixes that can be done quickly by this government. These are not long, drawn-out studies or work that needs to be done.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Ms. Koutrakis.

Mr. Barsalou‑Duval, you have two and a half minutes.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

A little while ago, I asked Mr. Corey and Mr. Buy to talk about retaining experienced workers. Mr. Morel‑Laforce, perhaps you have something to say on the issue, but I would ask you to go even further.

For example, Mr. Buy spoke about the fact that there were workers who were 70 years old and that you couldn't keep them on forever. And yet people my age and some of my friends are starting to see our parents retire, when in fact most of them could probably work another five to 10 years. They often say that they have the impression that they are working to pay taxes and that they would also like to enjoy a better quality of life.

Wouldn't there be ways to incentivize them to stay in their jobs for a longer period?

[Maguessa Morel-Laforce]

I think the industry would look favourably upon measures that would encourage people who are getting close to retirement or who are already past the age of retirement to carry on.

We certainly have an aging workforce. Often, the more workers are specialized, the older they are; they are the very backbones of the crews. Indeed, if tax measures convinced them to stay in place, we would be in favour.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

My next question is for you, but perhaps also for Mr. Buy.

In terms of automation and new technology that could be used, are there things that could be done to reduce labour requirements? I know you can't meet every requirement with this type of tool, but I was wondering if you had any ideas?

[Maguessa Morel-Laforce]

Our industry is at the forefront of automation. The St. Lawrence Seaway Management Corporation, for example, no longer moors ships with people, but rather with suction cups. This has helped the corporation to contend with departing workers. There are machines that are making up for the lack of personnel, but at the same time, we have to train the workers that are using the machines. This requires recruiting and training new employees.

The industry is certainly using automation, and it will seize any opportunity that presents itself. However, we still have to find workers that will operate the machines.

[Serge Buy]

There is indeed new technology. A ship that was built 40 years ago in no way resembles the ships that we have today. However, this new technology that would allow us to reduce the number of crew members is also regulated by Transport Canada, and the regulations do not always keep up with current technology. We have to update the technology and the regulations.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Barsalou‑Duval. I know that time flies by.

Next, we have Mr. Bachrach.

Mr. Bachrach, the floor is yours. You have two and a half minutes.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to the committee for welcoming my colleague Mr. Masse for a round of questions.

It's great to hear from all the witnesses today.

It's good to see you again, Mr. Buy. Obviously, ferries are of great interest in northwest B.C., so perhaps I'll address my questions to you for a couple of minutes.

I'm curious about salaries in your sector. We heard from the trucking industry, at a previous meeting, that salaries in the trucking industry have gone up, if I recall, by 15% to 20% in the past two years—some pretty staggering numbers. Have salaries shown similar increases in the ferry industry?

[Serge Buy]

I wouldn't say it's to that extent, but they are increasing.

I would say we're competitive. I was talking to Transport Canada a few days ago. They mentioned that we were poaching some of their candidates, because we were offering very good salaries. I would say, perhaps, that we are already there and don't have catching up to do versus other sectors. We are already offering extremely good salaries. The main reason for this is that we're competing internationally, as well.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr Buy, following up on that, earlier you had some comments that I think might have raised some eyebrows, saying that raising salaries may attract a few people but others will raise their salaries in this endless race to poach each other's employees and no one will benefit from that.

One could suggest that the employees benefit from higher salaries. Is raising salaries to remain competitive in the industry not a way to increase retention of existing employees? If there are others in the shipping industry or other transportation industries who are coming for your employees, how do you address that?

[Serge Buy]

I understand. If we raise salaries in the ferry sector, those employees are going to come from another sector. They may come from the shipping sector, so suddenly the shipping sector is going to have a crash or is going to be dealing with something else. We are actually competing with Transport Canada and the Coast Guard right now, and the cruise ships, on some salaries.

The comment was meant to say that at some point we're competing for the same group of people. Going up on salaries is great on all sides—and, absolutely, the employees always benefit from increased salaries—but it has to be viable, and it has to be a solution that ensures that all the sectors can continue.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Bachrach.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Next we have Mr. Muys.

Mr. Muys, the floor is yours. You have five minutes.

[Dan Muys, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON]

Thank you to all the witnesses, and thank you for providing recommendations. I note that the brief the Canadian Ferry Association sent has not only recommendations but detailed recommendations. That will be helpful as we consider our report.

I want to go back to the whole immigration issue and sourcing workers from foreign places, because you mentioned here a shortage of 19,000 workers in the next decade in the marine sector. We've heard testimony already about a shortage of 28,000—and growing—truckers in Canada at the moment. So, we have these shortages, and we've heard repeatedly over the course of now the third meeting on this study that immigration is a potential solution or an important solution.

Of course, we agree with that. That has always been the case in Canada, but my concern is that there are no quick fixes. You've mentioned the fact that it's a two-year wait. There's a two-year delay. I'm sure you're hearing that from members of your organizations and from people you're dealing with.

You mentioned 2.6 million cases. I heard 2.7 million cases. We can split the difference; that's fine. However, we know that the system is broken. We know that with this government a lot of things are broken. We saw that with passports, with the airport mess, etc.

How much trouble are we in if we have to wait two years?

[Serge Buy]

In the ferry sector, we're in trouble. We're often one person away from tying the ship and not enabling passengers and goods to come through.

Last year, when the vaccine mandates came, some employees refused to work. We tied a number of ferries down. Now that it's removed, some employees chose to come back to work; others didn't choose to come back to work. We're in trouble on that. Attracting people through immigration is key, but you're correct that we need to fix some major issues there.

[Maguessa Morel-Laforce]

You have plenty of industries in this country that rely on marine shipping of bulk cargo. I mean, take the iron ore that goes through Hamilton to be made into car parts. Take the grain farmers from the west who are relying on it for their exports. In the event that this shipping stops because there are no seafarers to man these ships, you will see a decrease in your exports, and you will see a decrease in the productivity of your major industries, absolutely.

[Dan Muys, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON]

Is it possible to quantify it over the course of the short term? Long-term, there have been recommendations that you've all made. Obviously, there can be fixes put into place, but that's not going to happen tomorrow. A couple of years down the road, we are going from 19,000 to what? We are 28,000 truck drivers short; that is what we heard at the last meeting. What are we looking at two to five years down the road? Do you have any sense of that?

[Maguessa Morel-Laforce]

I think there are solutions out there, and they are being implemented. I think the Ukrainian example is one that works very well. I know from my members that we have 20 to 30 seafarers who came this year because Transport Canada basically sealed a deal with Ukraine on recognizing their credentials. Now seafarers from Ukraine are welcome to work on Canadian ships. That's two ships right there that can be manned. If that program continues and more of this credential recognition is done with other countries, there is definitely a way to welcome seafarers.