Transport Committee on Oct. 19th, 2022

[Dan Muys, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON]

Mr. Buy has a comment.

Can you quantify that, Mr. Buy?

[Serge Buy]

I can't quantify it, but I'd like to continue on the point.

The agreement with Ukraine was signed. There is an agreement with France, Norway, Australia and Georgia, and the Canadian government is looking at signing an agreement with Brunei and then with the Philippines. The agreement with the Philippines will open a whole bunch of doors that will be very helpful for Canada. An agreement with India, which is also looked at and possibly is in the list of countries, would be the most beneficial for us, right after the one with the Philippines.

We talk about negatives. There are positives as well, and we need to explore them.

[Dan Muys, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON]

That's fair enough.

My time is probably winding down.

Mr. Corey, you referenced making trucking a skilled trade, as it is in Europe. Maybe you could speak a bit more to that and elaborate more on the European example or other jurisdictions that have best practices around that. It might be instructive for us.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Could we have a short response, please?

[John Corey]

As I said, it's almost a default career now. People default to trucking. It should be shown as a true vocation that is skilled, that requires a lot of responsibility, that pays very well and is a good environment to work in. Hopefully, that will attract more people to that industry.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Muys.

Mr. Chahal, the floor is yours. You have five minutes.

[George Chahal, Liberal, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for joining us today.

Mr. Corey, I'll start with you. Who are the truck drivers who are entering the industry today? Who are they? Where are they coming from?

[John Corey]

Well, in speaking to some of my members, there aren't many entering the industry today, so that is the problem. The average age is just getting older and older. It's a sort of lifestyle issue. People don't want to be on the road. They don't want to be away from their families. They'd rather stay close.

There are large groups of individuals who are involved in trucking and are coming from other countries, and that is good, because they obviously see this as an opportunity, but I think part of the problem is that we don't have any infill at the bottom as the older drivers are leaving at the top.

[George Chahal, Liberal, Calgary Skyview, AB]

I want to finish off where Mr. Muys left off, on making trucking a skilled trade. What are some specifics that we have to do to make it a skilled trade like other countries do? Is it a Red Seal program? We talked about the opportunity for an internship type of program, where you can work with an experienced driver. What does that look like specifically?

[John Corey]

Some of those things exactly.... Right now it would probably cost you about $10,000 to get the training required to get your licence to drive a big rig. There needs to be some acceptance that this is an important job. We saw that during the pandemic. If truck drivers hadn't continued operating, we would have been in a jackpot. There needs to be some recognition that this is an important job in society.

As I said, as it becomes more technologically bent, that may attract more people: younger people who are familiar with technology and want to embrace that. We're going to have things like platooning trucks, where you have five trucks with one driver. On autonomous trucking, I think that is way in the future.

Those are the kinds of things that would make this a bit of a sexier industry compared to what it is today, and I think that's what needs to happen to attract people.

[George Chahal, Liberal, Calgary Skyview, AB]

I'm going to go to a different line of questioning, and I want to hear from everybody. I'll tell you a bit about where this is coming from.

I represent a very diverse community in northeast Calgary, with rail, an airport and a lot of newcomers, a lot of them working in the trucking industry. They work in distribution and warehousing. Also, we have a very vibrant inland port, which is going to help with some of the supply chain challenges on the west coast, particularly as Prince Rupert grows.

I hear all the time from the industry that the government needs to do something with labour. I hear this all the time, but my question for you is, what is your organization doing to connect with labour, with diverse communities?

I will start with you, Mr. Buy.

[Serge Buy]

Thank you for that question. It's a great question.

We've actually looked at a number of solutions in the past. We can talk about indigenous communities also. A number of our members have programs to attract indigenous people to the sector.

For newcomers as well, a lot of work has been done with newcomers in making sure that when they're coming—because a lot of our ferries operate in remote communities—we are welcoming them in those communities. It is a challenge, on occasion, for people to establish in something that is completely remote.

We are doing a lot of work. Can more be done? Absolutely, more can always be done, but I can assure you that there is a lot of work being done by our members.

[George Chahal, Liberal, Calgary Skyview, AB]

To follow up, is your organization going out to those communities? Are you offering training or incentives, or are you looking at the government to do that for you?

[Serge Buy]

You'll never hear me saying that the government is a solution to everything. Our members are doing their part, and need to do their part. It's too easy to say the government is responsible for everything.

Our members are doing their part and making sure that people are welcome and people are trained. They are doing training. When we ask the government to do things, it's related to regulations and opening up some doors for us.

We are working with the communities. We are looking at doing a number of things. We are welcoming Ukrainian immigrants—refugees, at this point—and I'm probably going to go to the Philippines to attract new people in the near future.

There is a lot of work we are doing, specifically.

[George Chahal, Liberal, Calgary Skyview, AB]

I want to give 15 seconds to each of you, because that's all I have left.

Go ahead, Mr. Morel-Laforce.

[Maguessa Morel-Laforce]

The Canadian Marine Industry Foundation is exactly that. It's dedicated to spreading the good word about the industry and doing outreach to indigenous communities and to people who are not necessarily represented in the industry. The industry is very much active in its outreach.

However, funding would be greatly appreciated to do that, through ESDC programming or extended EI benefits for training in seafaring, for sure.

[John Corey]

My members are essentially shippers, so they would welcome any additional employees they could hire. The ability to do that.... The red tape around that could be reduced, which would facilitate that for everybody.

[George Chahal, Liberal, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Thank you so much.

Come to Calgary Skyview and I'll bring workers to work for you, as long as you pay them well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chahal. I appreciate that.

Next, we have Mr. Strahl.

The floor is yours. You have five minutes.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Hope, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to go directly to driver compensation and drill down into that area.

I grew up in a blue-collar town in Chilliwack and knew numerous people who raised families by driving long-haul trucks. Until a few years back, that is what they did to put food on the table. They lived a comfortable lifestyle.

I've heard stories since then about the rates for the routes that they used to cover, going back 20 years, and companies undercutting what had been the going rate for a number of years. They were clearly not paying the going rate or the previous prevailing wage to their drivers.

I want to talk a bit about mileage rates versus hourly rates, and what you're seeing. Are certain companies—some bad actors—taking advantage of vulnerable people and not paying a fair wage—or even minimum wage, it would seem—in some of these cases?

If we're going to ask companies to go to an hourly wage or if we believe that it would help address the driver shortage, what are we doing to alleviate the dwell times or the turnaround time problems at inland ports?

I talked to one of my colleagues, who said that he had a constituent reach out to him. He said he used to be able to turn a truck 1.8 times a day and now he's lucky if he can turn it once. It's easy to say he should pay an hourly wage, but if his driver is not moving product because things are jammed up at the inland ports or at the intermodal yards and so on, how is he going to do that?

I want to talk a bit about your concerns about the wide variance in wages. I'll go to Mr. Corey first. Are people cheating the system? Is there any policing happening for that? If so, what is it? Maybe some others can weigh in on the problems with port wait times, etc., that are going to make it more difficult to change the compensation model.

[John Corey]

Thank you for that question.

One problem with this is that it's not simple. In trucking, we're talking about a multi-jurisdictional industry. Each province has its own regulations and rules, and it's very hard to coordinate them all at the same time to have an even industry across the country.

Speaking from what I know, my members are saying that hourly wages make the job much more appealing. However—and your point is well taken—if you're sitting at a truck, dwelling for seven hours, waiting to pick up a container, that's a lot of money wasted.

Again, this issue is not single-faceted. Multiple players will have to be affected by this. What causes that dwell time? It means that maybe it's not as efficient at the intermodal yard. Maybe it's the railway that's having issues, and the trucker will end up paying for it.

Again, that's why having someone coordinating the supply chain to make sure we don't waste money on additional infrastructure or additional things, when we can use the assets we currently have more effectively, is better for everyone.

I don't have a simple answer for you, but I think we have to look at all aspects of the situation, and there's a ripple effect right through the system.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Hope, BC]

I guess it becomes less attractive. It's a chicken-and-egg thing. Is there a problem with the dwelling issue because there are not enough drivers, and are there not enough drivers because there's not adequate compensation to make it a desirable job? Multiple committees are studying this. This committee studied it. I think there are problems up and down the chain.

I don't know how much time I have left, but someone else wanted to weigh in on that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

You have 20 seconds, Mr. Strahl.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Hope, BC]

I don't know if Mr. Morel-Laforce wants to comment.

[Maguessa Morel-Laforce]

On the dwelling time at ports, I think we talked about data sharing and automation. There are definitely things that can be done. Port members have been working hard at lining up trucks with cargo more quickly. Investment in new technologies can definitely help in reducing wait times for truckers at ports.