Evidence of meeting #10 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was companies.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Thank you, Mr. Groleau.
Mr. Lauzon, you now have the floor for five minutes.
Liberal
Stéphane Lauzon Liberal Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I would like to thank the witnesses for being here.
My first question is for Mr. McKee.
We heard you loud and clear. You said that it was very important to enforce the law, and you placed a lot of emphasis on the T4A. Indeed, there is a moratorium. My colleague says that we shouldn't blame the Conservatives, but contrary to what he says, in 2011 and 2013, the Conservatives imposed a moratorium on the T4A. We are monitoring the issue, as Ms. Gagnon said.
Mr. McKee, in recent years, we have taken measures in the budget to change certain data. The Conservatives voted against this in the budget statement. You know the impact this has on the Atlantic region. T4A cannot solve everything, even though it is an important component. I agree with you on that.
Tell me about other measures besides the T4A that could improve the situation for drivers.
Executive Director, Atlantic Provinces Trucking Association
One thing that would be very beneficial would be to have a uniform national carrier database across all provinces. We need the provinces to work together to share information on these fleets. Often, what happens is that these people may be caught, they may be audited and they may be fined, but upon follow-up visits by ESDC auditors, they've disappeared; they've changed names. We call it ghosting.
If we had a national database supported by all provinces sharing the same amount of data and sharing all types of carrier safety and insurance information, driver information and driver profiles, this would be one step to really help us keep track of these carriers.
As for the T4A issue, as much as you've asked me to talk past it, I think almost immediately we could see positive benefits for this issue. Lifting that moratorium would restore a paper trail. Within one tax year, we'd likely see non-compliance drop sharply because these companies and drivers would know that their transactions are being tracked. We really see that as the number one benefit.
As I said in my statements, continue to encourage or support Transport Canada and the provinces in the work they're doing to create a national carrier database where you, as a government, know everybody who is running a tractor trailer down the highways in this country and are able to look to see if they are safe and compliant carriers.
Liberal
Stéphane Lauzon Liberal Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC
Thank you for your response.
My next question is for Mr. Bylsma.
You care deeply about your company. It provides many well-paid jobs within a strict legislative framework. Our colleague from the Bloc Québécois has provided us with a comprehensive list of possible connections with the federal government, particularly with regard to foreign workers, tax regulations and so on.
I would like to return to the question I asked Mr. McKee. The T4A is not a silver bullet. Within the provinces and territories, we still have certain responsibilities. Do you agree that the legislative framework for licensing is provincial? Do you agree that the eligibility criteria for drivers include language and mandatory training, and that they must therefore pass a test?
You have spoken extensively about the lack of safety due to regulations not being followed. I believe that a comprehensive evaluation process is carried out in each of your provinces. Do you question the provincial system that governs Class 1 truck driver licences for your company or for competing companies that hinder your success?
President, Spring Creek Carriers Inc.
Yes, I agree. It needs to be both.
I'm the chair of the Ontario Trucking Association. We lobby Queen's Park. We're constantly working on it. I think I gave you the five bullets that Queen's Park is working on through its different ministries.
It has to be a collaborative approach. The WSIB has found $6.8 million in assessments and penalties. The CRA and the different departments need to work collaboratively with the federal government. The federal government needs to be willing to take the data and say, “Who are you finding as non-compliant so we can also go after them?”
There's not one silver bullet here. There are a whole bunch of different things.
President, Spring Creek Carriers Inc.
I'm sorry. I saw the red card in the corner of my eye. I was ignoring you.
Liberal
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Thank you, Mr. Lauzon.
Mr. Barsalou‑Duval, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.
Bloc
Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Gagnon, I would like to address something you mentioned. The other two witnesses may agree.
A year or two ago, this committee conducted a study on the labour shortage in the transportation sector, and one of the main findings was that there was a labour shortage in the trucking industry, among others. Many people in the trucking industry had mentioned this to us. You also mentioned that it is becoming difficult to retain your staff, and I have heard the same from other carriers.
Do you feel that the government's inaction on the “Driver Inc.” phenomenon will exacerbate the labour shortage you are currently experiencing? What will be the long-term outcome?
Vice-President, Transport St-Pamphile Inc.
It will certainly worsen the shortage because, as I said earlier, our passionate and proud workers are discouraged. They are thinking about doing something else. These are people who deserve pay raises, but we are not able to offer them that at the moment, or even offer them a better quality of life or better conditions, because we have illegal drivers getting in our way.
When the government decides to take all these people off the road, the result will be a worse labour shortage. The longer we wait to act, the worse it will be, because good employees and those who are passionate about their work will leave their jobs. That is where we are headed.
Bloc
Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC
Could we reach a point where only fraudulent and dangerous drivers remain on the roads, and there are no more compliant drivers and companies?
Vice-President, Transport St-Pamphile Inc.
That's what I fear. Proud people like us are completely discouraged. We have no resources or support. We feel that their business model is now the norm in the transportation industry. We feel that we should adopt their business model, but that's out of the question. If that's the way it is, we're going to walk away.
Bloc
Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC
Are you telling me that fraud is becoming the norm?
Vice-President, Transport St-Pamphile Inc.
It's unfortunate to say, but that's how we see it. These people are literally replacing us.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Thank you very much, Mr. Barsalou‑Duval.
Next we have Mr. Lewis.
The floor is yours. You have five minutes, sir.
Conservative
Chris Lewis Conservative Essex, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to all of the witnesses who have brought testimony forward this morning.
I'd like to start with Mr. Bylsma.
Your testimony was excellent and heartbreaking. I heard your story about how you're not going to have a generational business. Conservatives always want our highways safe. I come from a generational business. There's nothing more heartbreaking than when a leader says that. I needed to make that statement.
Thank you for being the chair of the Ontario Trucking Association, by the way. You actually represent Morrice Transportation and Wolverine transportation down in my riding.
You said in one of your answers that you've been chasing up the chain for likely a decade. A decade, ironically, is 10 years of the Liberals being in power.
My question for you is on the association. Have you met with the ministers? Have you met with government officials? Have they reached out to you? If so, what have they said?
President, Spring Creek Carriers Inc.
I would say the Ontario Trucking Association and the Canadian Trucking Alliance have great relationships will all levels of government, right from the Ministry of Transportation to finance and everyone else.
They've all been made aware of this over the last 10 years. There is no one of substance who can actually do something about it who doesn't know about it.
To get it granular and get at exactly who knows what, you'd have to ask our staff, who are at the back of the room if you want to talk to them after this dialogue.
Conservative
Chris Lewis Conservative Essex, ON
Everybody has been made aware of it, but no action has been taken. Is that correct?
President, Spring Creek Carriers Inc.
That is correct.
We're starting on that. I mentioned the five things in Ontario. There's a lot more going on than that, but those are the most effective things that we're seeing the greatest results from. That's why I wanted to list them. More needs to be done, but I think it needs to be in collaboration with both the federal government and every provincial government.
Conservative
Chris Lewis Conservative Essex, ON
This question is for both you and Mr. McKee.
Is there a certain sector of bad actors? Is there a certain consumable shipped in a certain sector in which there are more bad actors than in others?
Here's my thought process. We heard Donald Trump say yesterday that he's going to take a whole bunch of our auto jobs away from us. These are a whole bunch of transport jobs that aren't going to be happening, when every part for every car goes back and forth across the busiest international border crossing seven times. These are a whole bunch of jobs that will be lost.
Is there a certain sector that needs to be targeted?
Executive Director, Atlantic Provinces Trucking Association
I can speak to that very quickly.
Anecdotally, my members notice it. Their heaviest impact would be on what we call general freight or dry vans—your dry 53-foot trailers—and the refrigerated sector. We're not seeing a proliferation of these companies so much in the heavy and oversized sector of our industry or in the more complex loads; we're seeing it with general freight.
I don't want to throw out names, because I don't want to paint someone with a brush wrongly, but there are grocery suppliers transporting loads from Ontario to Atlantic Canada and vice versa. We're seeing a bit of it infiltrate the ports as well—we service major ports in Atlantic Canada—but for the most part, I would say it is the dry van and the refrigerated sectors that are suffering the most.
My colleagues may disagree based on their own experience.
