Transport Committee on Sept. 25th, 2025

[Aaron Gunn, Conservative, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Can you detail the main priorities that your union fights for, for your members? Is it higher wages, better working conditions, these kinds of things, over the past years and decades?

[Eric McNeely]

Yes. Through the seventies until now we have been fighting for better working conditions, safe working conditions and a reasonable sense of quality of life. We're proud of the work we've done. There's still a lot of work to do. I am in bargaining later today, and that's a process that continues on an ongoing basis. However, we have progressed our membership and the people around the coast and around Canada forward in a way that we don't necessarily see in the People's Republic of China.

[Aaron Gunn, Conservative, North Island—Powell River, BC]

What, then, is the point of having a union and achieving these results for your members if your government then simply then turns around and offshores these jobs to a country like China, which doesn't have these wages or these working conditions, and basically undercuts everything that you've been fighting so hard to achieve over the past decades and years, as you mentioned?

[Eric McNeely]

I think that's the key point here. We need to push for stronger federal rules to keep public investment supporting Canadian jobs. We need to get the federal government to expand the national shipbuilding strategy to include ferries, because we need to spend Canadian tax dollars on Canadians and not offshore. Every time we offshore that money, we're not saving it; we're burning it in someone else's economy.

[Aaron Gunn, Conservative, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I have one last question for you.

Do you think it's fair, at a time when China's hitting our farmers and seafood harvesters with tariffs as high as 100%, that we are allowing these ships to be built in a state-owned shipyard of that very same country and then allowing them to enter this country tariff-free?

[Eric McNeely]

Do I think it's fair? No.

We're giving public money to public infrastructure, and it's leaving the country before a single welding torch is sparked.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Gunn.

Thank you, Mr. McNeely.

Next, we'll go to Ms. Nguyen.

Ms. Nguyen, the floor is yours. You have five minutes, please.

[Chi Nguyen, Liberal, Spadina—Harbourfront, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much to the witnesses for joining us this morning. I'm learning a ton about this space, and I'm really thrilled to hear from you all.

I want to ask about looking forward because a decision has been taken by BC Ferries, and as we move forward with new policies as a new government, we have some measures that we have implemented to invest in skills building for the sector through apprenticeships and so on.

Could you talk a bit about the proactive measures we can and should continue investing in that can support building the local capacity, the domestic capacity? As someone who's a woman, I want to see more women in trades. Are there programs...? I know we have the women in the skilled trades initiative that we've been supporting.

Are those the kinds of things that can help strengthen and grow our domestic capacity so that we can be prepared to move forward in creating the conditions to have those jobs here?

[Marty Warren]

I'll jump in quickly.

It's vital, especially as we bargain. We bargain a lot for investment because investment is the key to the survival of a lot of sectors, but with investment comes technology. Whether it's re-educating somebody in the current work force or there's a change in terms of other opportunities for workers to jump into new sectors, I think training is the key to this, so that we have a workforce ready to go that can jump in when a new business starts or maintain a current business with technology changes.

[Eric McNeely]

Following up on that, I would concur that there's a lot of skills building they can do. My members repair the vessels, work on them and operate them. There are opportunities for the federal government to support education. There are some skilled work supports for women in trades, and trades generally. I think there's a shortfall at the federal level, where mariners who are advancing their certificates through engineering and navigational roles aren't eligible to apply for employment insurance while in school, and that's different from the trades. I think there are some opportunities there.

Certainly with a workforce that is nearly 70% men, there are more opportunities to get more women into it. When we look at our maintenance facilities, we're looking at about 3% women in our maintenance trades facility, so there are opportunities there. Supports from the federal government would build those jobs, and if there's work to do, they can last for generations.

[Chi Nguyen, Liberal, Spadina—Harbourfront, ON]

Thanks very much.

I want to ask about some of the measures that I know our government has started to introduce over the last few weeks and months.

There's $70 million over three years to help provide some of that support, and this is going to be administered through provincial and territorial labour market.... I'm sorry. LMDA is an acronym I'm not entirely familiar with. Some of the measures and investments we are doing are about re-skilling, as well as some changes federally for new federal procurement rules that will require us to have Canadian steel used in federally funded infrastructure.

Are these the kinds of measures that you think will help us have a more important made in Canada, buy in Canada, support Canadian approach?

[Marty Warren]

Meg, do you want to comment?

[Meg Gingrich]

Sure. I think it's a start.

I don't know about the amount—$70 million. We'll have to see if that is sufficient, but I do think that these training initiatives are important, as well as ensuring that they're actually tied to larger strategies about where we want to invest and what types of jobs we want to create and not just thrown around willy-nilly without any larger plan. I think what we're seeing here is that we didn't have an industrial strategy that was sufficient on this. We didn't plan, invest and anticipate in the ways we could have.

Even in terms of the Infrastructure Bank, we did not have conditions tied to it that were meaningful in any way to ensure that the money that comes from it actually leads to the creation of local jobs and the sourcing local materials. As we've heard from Marty and Brother McNeely today, it just points to this larger, long-term failure of any sort of strategy and coordination. The federal government really can play that role in coordinating, investing and determining where the money needs to go as part of a larger strategy.

[Chi Nguyen, Liberal, Spadina—Harbourfront, ON]

I really like to think about how we take lessons and move forward on what can be new policy.

As we look forward, are there any other dimensions you want to re-emphasize that are important for us as we think about an industrial policy?

[Eric McNeely]

When we're looking at industrial policy, we need to look at the whole ecosystem that occurs. It's the life cycle, whether it's building a vessel, operating a vessel or recycling vessels. There's a real shortfall in that full life-cycle thought in Canada.

If we're going to tie federal money to any part of that cycle—or all of it, in my opinion—then we really want to ensure there's a tie-in to Canadians. We need to look at the training opportunities for that entire life cycle. That includes those who operate and maintain the vessels as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Ms. Nguyen.

Thank you, Mr. McNeely, Mr. Warren and Ms. Gingrich, for joining us early this morning. We very much appreciate your testimony on this very important study our committee has embarked upon.

I wish you a wonderful day as I suspend for five minutes, so we can welcome our next round of witnesses.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

I call the meeting back to order.

I'd like to make a few comments for the benefit of our second round of witnesses.

First, please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your microphone, and please mute yourself when you are not speaking. For those on Zoom, at the bottom of your screen you can select the appropriate channel for interpretation: floor, English or French. For those in the room, you can use the earpiece and select the desired channel. I remind you that all comments should be addressed through the chair.

Finally, for those joining us online, I have two cards, one yellow and one red. If I hold up the yellow card, it means you have 15 seconds left in your time. If I hold up the red card, I'm not trying to be mean, but unfortunately it means I will have to cut you off to ensure the equality of time to all members.

I'd like to now welcome our witnesses. From the BC Federation of Labour, we have Sussanne Skidmore, president, by video conference. From the British Columbia and Yukon Territory Building Construction Trades Council, we have Brynn Bourke, executive director, by video conference. Finally, from the BC Shipyard General Workers' Federation, we have George MacPherson, president, by video conference.

I can see in the background, as some of you are next to windows, that it is very early in the morning. I want you to know that, on behalf of all members, we appreciate your being here with us this early.

We'll start our opening remarks with Ms. Skidmore.

The floor is yours. You have five minutes, please.

[Sussanne Skidmore, President, BC Federation of Labour]

Thank you for the invitation to speak with you all this morning, and thank you in particular for spotlighting the decision by BC Ferries to purchase its next four major vessels from a shipyard in China instead of building them right here in British Columbia.

As you said, my name is Sussanne Skidmore, and I am the president of the British Columbia Federation of Labour. We comprise more than 80 affiliated unions, representing more than half a million workers from every part of British Columbia and literally every sector of our economy.

As many of those workers can tell you, ferries in British Columbia are every bit as much a part of our highway system as any bridge, tunnel or stretch of asphalt. Both the southern and northern legs of the Trans-Canada Highway include ferry crossings. Ferries get goods to market and people where they need to go, from the inland ferries crossing rivers and lakes to the marine networks operated by BC Ferries serving our islands and coastal communities.

A large chunk of our economy is literally riding on the ferries, so when we talk about “buy Canadian”, when we talk about “buy B.C.” and when we talk about nation-building projects, British Columbia's ferries should be very much on our minds.

If “buy B.C.” is to be more than a slogan, surely it should mean that a project as significant as the next major addition to B.C.'s ferry fleet should be built in our province. Surely it should mean that the hundreds of millions of dollars that we pour into a project like that get rolled back into our local economies through wages, taxes and, of course, spinoff businesses. Surely it should mean building with Canadian steel, aluminum, copper and zinc. Surely it should mean that British Columbians and Canadians benefit from the creation of thousands of highly skilled, well-paid jobs in our shipyards. Surely it should mean our investments help to secure a robust and vibrant shipbuilding sector and the jobs it supports for generations to come. Surely, when it matters most and can have the biggest impact on our economy, “buy B.C.” should mean truly buying in B.C.

The management at BC Ferries has instead chosen short-term cost savings over long-term benefits for our province and country. I don't see how they can square that with section 21.01(1) of the Coastal Ferry Act, which requires that BC Ferries be directed “in support of the public interest”.

It would be hard for me to overstate just how large an opportunity is being squandered here. It goes beyond the impacts of this one project, enormous as it is, as we're in the middle of a trade war with both the United States and China. Our governments have asked the working people of British Columbia and the rest of Canada to rally together in solidarity, and working people across our country did that, whether it was in check-out lines or e-commerce shopping carts. Workers are still looking for that “made in Canada” label. They expect our governments to do the same, and it's not too late to do just that.

We want to see a commitment to the construction of these B.C. ferries in Canada starting now. We want to ensure that everyone who sails in those four new ferries can be proud to know they came from a B.C. shipyard, where they were built by their neighbours from Canadian materials. We want to see the public interest become a mandatory core criterion for assessing major projects, binding both the federal and provincial governments. That's how you build not just ferries but a thriving industry and a strong sovereign economy.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much.

Next we'll go to Ms. Bourke.

Ms. Bourke, the floor is yours. You have five minutes, please.

[Brynn Bourke, Executive Director, British Columbia and Yukon Territory Building and Construction Trades Council]

Thank you, Mr. Chair and members of the committee, for inviting me to address you.

I'm Brynn Bourke, executive director for BC Building Trades. We are a council of 20 craft construction unions representing over 45,000 construction workers across British Columbia. I’m here today to speak first and foremost for our members in the shipbuilding industry, and in particular for the people who wanted and needed this work and watched it go offshore.

We represent over 2,500 hard-working tradespeople who earn their living building and maintaining vessels in British Columbia: 1,300 members from Marine & Shipbuilders CMAW local 506; 429 members from UA local 170; 100 members from UA local 324; 350 members from IBEW local 230; over 500 members from IBEW local 213; and over 150 members from IUOE local 115, the operating engineers.

I want you to understand that the history of shipbuilding in British Columbia goes back over 100 years. Our members built almost every single ferry in this province before 2000. In fact, the Queen-class vessels currently being replaced with this procurement were built in British Columbia. The Queen of New Westminster and the Queen of Cowichan were built in Victoria shipyards. The Queen of Coquitlam and Queen of Alberni were built in North Vancouver. Our members took tremendous pride in building these vessels and watching them service communities along our coast for over 40 years.

Members like Phil Venoit, now a business manager of IBEW 230, served his apprenticeship building B.C. ferries. That job earned him a lifelong career in the trades. He and thousands of others were able to qualify for mortgages with paycheques earned in those shipyards. They also used the skills they learned on those Queen-class vessels to build other major vessels, up to and including the HMCS Protecteur, the longest naval vessel ever built in Canada, launched from the Seaspan shipyard in North Vancouver last December.

We wrote to this committee earlier this summer to communicate the capacity of B.C. shipyards to build these ferries and the willingness of B.C. shipyard workers to undertake this work. With the right procurement structure and a prioritization of Canadian content, BC Ferries could have leveraged B.C.'s world-class shipyards.

BC Building Trades has long advocated for ferries to be built locally. In advance of this procurement, we lobbied to have a process that prioritized Canadian content and Canadian jobs. This was a once-in-a-generation opportunity to support B.C. shipyards, protect B.C. jobs and invest in our economy. Instead, BC Ferries chose to prioritize a low-bid process, making it impossible for shipyards to compete. In the end, the decision to use a foreign shipyard was the inevitable outcome of a very flawed process.

I really want to highlight this point: Not a single measure has been put in place since this decision that would prevent this from happening again. We need a commitment to build ferries in Canada. We need a commitment to build more dry docks in British Columbia. We need a commitment to support a shipbreaking industry and invest in coastal communities to build the infrastructure to take on this work. We need a commitment to procure such materials as steel from Canadian manufacturers. We need a workforce development strategy with training dollars for our shipbuilding industry. Finally, we need the Canada Infrastructure Bank to use these values in deciding which projects to support.

For us, this is about more than just ferries. This is about an industry that supports a local workforce that is trained and qualified to support the construction of major industrial activity in Canada. A new generation of British Columbians was ready and eager to take on this opportunity and build these ferries at home.

I want to be clear: The jobs lost here were significant for my members and for the people of British Columbia. An economic study was conducted when BC Ferries was contemplating building seven vessels. It found that B.C.'s major vessels project would have created between 2,500 and more than 5,000 jobs in our shipyards, with another 1,000 to 2,000 indirect jobs from suppliers in British Columbia.

This decision does not reflect our values as Canadians. It does not recognize the long-standing role B.C. workers have played in building our shipbuilding industry. It does not enable skilled trades training and apprenticeship opportunities for our youth. It does not promote economic activity on our coast or help circulate wages within our local communities. It also does nothing to bolster our national security.

We stand ready to provide a local workforce to build these ferries in British Columbia.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Ms. Bourke.

Finally, we will go to Mr. MacPherson.

Mr. MacPherson, the floor is yours. You have five minutes, sir.

[George MacPherson, President, Shipyard General Workers' Federation]

Thank you very much. I appreciate the opportunity to put our voices forward on this project.

Clearly, BC Ferries has made another bad decision in going offshore.

We've reached out to some of our shipyards to find out what their thoughts were. Canadian shipyards would not have bid on this project. The shipyards would have reviewed the procurement and looked at the likelihood of being successful. Based on their level of competitiveness, they would have declined the process because Canadian shipyards are too expensive to compete on a world market for new ship construction, especially when competing with China, Korea and other shipbuilding nations that have wages significantly lower than those of Canadian workers. They are nations that possess national incentives such as subsidies, or the shipyards are owned by the government of that country, which is the problem with China, of course, and Korea.

The capabilities and facilities are committed to the national shipbuilding strategy. There's an insignificant market for Canadian shipbuilders to maintain large commercial shipbuilding operations unless supported by the NSS. There is a severe lack of skilled labour in Canada to build these vessels.

I'll add that, prior to 2000, all B.C. ferries were built in British Columbia by our members, by the building trades members. The success has been incredible. When this project came online, there was talk of five vessels that they wanted to build. There was a proposal put forward by Davie shipyard in conjunction with people on the west coast. We were going to have a consortium of shipyards and shipyard workers to set up a new facility to build these vessels in Delta, on Annacis Island. We lobbied the provincial government and we lobbied BC Ferries. Clearly, there was no interest whatsoever in dealing with Canadian workers. They wanted nothing to do with the Canadian yards.

In short, we would not be competitive in estimating for construction of these vessels. For a very expensive proposition with no guarantee of success, there was no reason for them to put forward their bids.

The other issue we have is that when BC Ferries goes offshore—and it has done this now a number of times—when it brings the vessel back into the country, the federal government waives the duty on these vessels coming in. There's a 25% duty that protects the industry. That's what was put forward to help protect people and make sure that we keep the industry viable. Prior to the Gordon Campbell government coming in 2000, whenever BC Ferries had a project it wanted to look at, it would bring the industry together. We would all sit at the same table to decide how we were going to do it.

A perfect example is the Spirit-class vessels that are out there. They were done by a consortium of yards on the west coast. These are still the pride of the fleet. They were built by a number of shipyards and it was a very successful project. There were supposed to be four of those; they managed to shelve two of them, so we built only two.

Then we end up with the problem, of course, with the “fast cats”. That was a political decision, not a shipyard decision. The Campbell government decided it was going to punish everybody, so it punished the industry by setting up BC Ferries as we see it today.

There's no self-interest in what we're doing with BC Ferries. They don't put any value in Canadian workers. They just decide that they're going for the low bid and that's the bottom line for them.

I'll leave you with the example of the Jones Act down in the United States. There's a country that protects its industry. It looks after its workers. It goes a step further. Washington state has legislation that says the ferries that are going to operate in Washington state must be built in Washington state.

I'll leave that with the committee.

We'll continue to lobby BC Ferries and the provincial government to make the changes that need to happen.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. MacPherson.

We'll begin our first round of questioning with Mr. Gunn.

Mr. Gunn, the floor is yours. You have six minutes, sir.

[Aaron Gunn, Conservative, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Ms. Bourke, I have a question for you.

If you could ballpark it, on average how much would you say the average union worker you represent pays each year in taxes?

[Brynn Bourke]

I would say that the average wage, if you were to average it out between apprentices and journeypersons, is probably about $100,000 or $110,000, so that's about $30,000.