Veterans Affairs Committee on Feb. 9th, 2009

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Thank you to our new Chair.

Congratulations, Mr. Thompson, on being re-elected.

How much has been allocated to us in the 2009-2010 budget? The Library of Parliament briefing notes make no mention of this figure.

[Greg Thompson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

The budget is over $3 billion and counting. I think it's $3.4 billion in total. Of course, then we can break that down, Roger, between direct benefits to veterans and the cost of running the department. So $3.4 billion in total is the number.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

According to the Library of Parliament briefing notes, the Main Estimates total $3.397 billion, which represents an increase of only $3 million for fiscal year 2009-2010. In light of the situation in Afghanistan and the likelihood of an influx of new patients, similar to what occurred during the conflicts in Bosnia and the Gulf, and in view of the opening of 10 new clinics to treat post-traumatic stress syndrome, the $3 million increase provided for in the 2009-2010 budget doesn't seem like much.

What do you think?

[Greg Thompson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Some of the money on the OSI clinics that we have dedicated was budgeted in 2007, and a lot of the cost to that was getting the program in the centres up and running, which we have done. So within Veterans Affairs there's been some adjustment. We have not lost any services to our veterans at Veterans Affairs, or any delivery of services to our veterans, and that's the important thing to remember.

When we take a look at the veterans population--and I'm reminded of this quite often--we're losing our World War II veterans. We're losing, on average, 20,000 a year, and the number of traditional World War II veterans is being reduced every year. Then we're bringing newer veterans to replace them. We'll never run out of veterans. We have that big number of about 170,000 World War II veterans left with us today. They're all octogenarians and some a little bit older. So we're losing somewhere between 15,000 and 20,000 of those men and women every year. But our commitment and our financial resources to that family hasn't really changed, because we're continuing to award and adjust pensions for many of those, ongoing, because of ailments that crop up as a result of old age. Some of the support that's ongoing is for their widows or family members as well.

The department still has a very healthy budget, and despite the fact that we have a decreasing older veterans population, that budget really hasn't been diminished in terms of the service or the delivery of those services to those veterans.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

I'd like to speak for my friend Gilles Perron, whom most of you know. A report on post-traumatic stress disorder was produced at CFB Petawawa, but I haven't yet had time to read it. Last year, the committee visited CFB Petawawa. I belive I'm the only person here who visited the base. Committee members were deeply affected by the experience. While I'm pleased to see that a report was produced, I hope that some follow-up action will be taken. We were told that at Petawawa, there is one psychiatrist on staff for 13,000 people. Obviously, it is not only soldiers, but families who are need of his services. Therefore, I'll get in touch with Gilles Perron, and he can fill me in. Aside from that, I have no other questions at this time.

[Greg Thompson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Thank you. I understand where the question is directed, and you're talking about what came out in the DND report as opposed to Veterans Affairs. It's pretty difficult to separate a veteran from an actual service member, isn't it? And I do know that we utilize psychiatrists and that kind of support within the greater society as well, so it's not just psychiatrists within DND or Veterans Affairs or anyone attached to any of our clinics who can actually serve and respond to the needs of veterans. So that's something we have done. It fits in with the previous question in terms of how our health care system works, as opposed to some of these other jurisdictions. A veteran can go to those clinics or those professionals that exist outside of the military per se, if you will. So we utilize those professionals across the country.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, Minister.

I have two slots that come up now for the Conservative Party, and only one person has been identified so far.

Mr. McColeman, for five minutes.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and congratulations on your appointment to chair. I know you do a great job.

Minister, as you know, there are a few new members of our party here today, As new members, I think most of us have been listening and learning, especially from veteran parliamentarians such as you. I just want to comment on your commitment to your role. I know I've learned that through two visits to my community a couple of years ago, before I was elected to the Thank-a-Vet Luncheon committee, and then more recently at the Military Heritage Museum. And I've learned about your philosophy of erring on the side of generosity. However, we're in tough economic times, no question, and I think we'd all agree about that. Bearing that in mind, I'd like to ask you what your priorities are for improving the benefits for veterans.

[Greg Thompson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

I think it is an area of concern for all of us, because we do know that we're right in the midst of a worldwide economic downturn, which is not good for any of us. It's a place we don't want to be, but because of circumstances, that's where we all are. And I'm certainly not laying the blame at the foot of this government or any other government; it's just one of those things that we have to deal with as we move ahead.

We often say around this place, and it's an expression that we overuse, that we should “move forward”, but the truth is that we're not going to download any of these problems onto the backs of our veterans or our men and women in uniform; we're completely committed to them. We're not going to download, as we've said, onto the backs of the provinces, because if we did that, if we talked about downloading onto the backs of the provinces, Mr. McColeman, basically it would mean that the cost of the services that we provide to the veterans through our universal health care would have to be borne by someone. So we're just not going to do that. So we're truly committed to maintaining these programs, and we'll do that. Again, the budget speaks for itself.

We just haven't done that, and I think most of our veterans and our men and women in uniform will take some comfort from that, that we haven't downloaded on them and we have no intention of downloading on them through these very difficult economic times.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

Are there some programs that take priority in your ministry over others? Are there things that if you had the chance, you would see as taking priority?

[Greg Thompson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Some of them have been brought to the floor here by members of the committee on both sides, but the group of veterans that I think we have to really.... It's hard to focus on one group and not the other, but I think most of us get pretty emotional when we start talking about our 85-year-old veteran, that World War II veteran, and we are reaching out as much as we can to that aging veterans community, who are getting to the point in life where they do need help and they have never asked for anything in their entire life.

I'll tell this story, because I think we're going to have the time, and I hope, Mr. Chairman, I can have time to get it in. How fast we get there is always the question, isn't it, in terms of helping? But the simple answer to the question, Phil, is that those aging veterans are the ones I think about the most, in terms of whether we are doing enough for them.

When I was out in Arnprior a couple of years ago, we did an event out there and met a World War II veteran, and he told me about his family. I told this story in the Senate last year, just after the election. We normally do an event in the House of Commons and speak in the House, but we did the one in the Senate, which is always a great event, and I finally got this story into words in a condensed form.

In Arnprior, a veteran came up to me, a World War II veteran, and talked to me about having served and his brothers having served. They lived on a farm. He told me the whole story of how they enlisted and so on, a great story, and he said he got wounded, he got shot and got wounded and came back home. And I said, “I guess you're one of our clients”. And he said, “No, I'm not a client. I came back; I felt pretty lucky coming back home in one piece. My wife...I married a wonderful woman and we had a nice business, a great family, and we always did okay. I always felt that somebody else could use the help.” That tells the story of the whole veterans community. It's not like everyone's pounding on your door to get more. That's just an example of our veterans community. A lot of them don't ask for help.

One of the guys here had a question, and I'm not sure who it was, on how many veterans we have. We have about 800,000 veterans total in Canada, and we provide a direct service to a very small percentage of that 800,000, when you think about it. And I'm including the reservists in that 800,000, Phil.

That's an example right there of men who have never asked for anything, women who have never asked for anything, but they're reaching the stage in their life where they might need help. And I said to this particular gentleman, what would happen today if you died? If you died today and your wife needed VIP treatment, guess what--she wouldn't get it. He was not a client, and that could only be transferred under that set of circumstances. Those are the kinds of complicated problems within the department that we have to fix.

And going back to Mr. Stoffer's question, we have fixed part of it, but we'll never get there fast enough, as far as I'm concerned. It's always about taking the financial resources of the Government of Canada. How much can we do in industry? How much can we do in some of the other programs that we have? And how much can we do this year, right now, in Veterans Affairs?

So we have fixed many of those programs, Phil, and we have made it easier for some of those widows to get in, but the truth is that the frail and aging veterans population is the one that's the most heart-warming and heart-wrenching when you see how difficult it is for some of those people who are now getting into the last decade, if you will, of their life. I often say that this government or the next government will be the last government that can actually make a difference to the lives of those men and women who are now octogenarians.

If you look around and do the math, we have one World War I veteran left: Mr. Babcock down in Spokane, Washington. This gentleman is 108 or 109. I think he's 108, but once you get past 106 it's pretty difficult to keep track of the years. I think he knows the years better than I do.

That's what we're looking at, and it's not just a question I have myself or how I look at it. I'm not sure who the next person in this chair will be—it could be one of you or it could be somebody else—but the truth is that it's something I sort of grapple with myself. What more can we do and how fast can we get there? The line I use is that no matter how much we do for the men and women in uniform, we're never going to do enough.

We take so much for granted in this country. I mean, our basic freedoms we take for granted. These are the people who strapped on the uniform and did what their country asked them to do. I think when it gets to the point in their life when they need something, we should be there to help them.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, Minister.

We'll now go to Madam O'Neill-Gordon.

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

First, I want to congratulate you, David, on your appointment to the chair. I look forward to working on this committee.

I want to thank Mr. Thompson for his presentation here this afternoon.

Coming from a classroom, I can certainly reiterate the fact that there is an awful lot more now that goes into the classrooms in presentations to make children aware of our veterans.

Quite often in the legions or when I meet up with veterans they'll ask me to do this, say that, or find out this information. So I was wondering, when you're making changes to programs, if you consult veterans associations and our legions. How do you go about it?

[Greg Thompson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

I think that's one of the things we do. We work very closely with veterans organizations across the country, Tilly. We do listen to them. We have the Royal Canadian Legion, which is the biggest veteran organization with about 400,000 members. We have the ANAVETS, the Peacekeeping Veterans Association, and the Aboriginal Veterans Association. We listen very closely to them and we have a good relationship with them. In fact, we meet quite regularly with them to speak of their needs and identify some areas where they'd like to see improvements or where we can improve. It is a very close relationship and we work very closely with them.

Again, there are some big challenges out there because of the changing demographics and the aging veteran population. We don't directly fund veteran organizations, but when you look at the biggest organization, the Royal Canadian Legion, there's basically a legion hall in every country. Sadly, their membership is falling. They used to do a lot of the work themselves and still do. They do tremendous work in the veteran community in helping, reaching out to, and identifying veterans who do need help. We rely on a lot of that information coming from them in terms of those organizations. Our relationship with them is good and we work very closely with them.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Could we suspend the clock for a moment?

Minister, did you want to have some closing remarks? If you did, Mr. Stoffer is next in line, and I'll need to deal with the time.

[Greg Thompson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Would it be possible for me to run out the clock before Mr. Stoffer comes on?

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

I can always get him later.

[Greg Thompson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

No, Mr. Chairman, I don't have any closing remarks other than a few thank yous for getting together and so forth. It's nothing formal.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, Minister.

I'm sorry to interrupt, Madam O'Neill-Gordon. Please proceed.

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

That's fine. I've finished.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

You've finished your questioning.

Mr. Clarke, if you want to take the rest of it, there are two and a half minutes.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

When we talk about veterans, as I also come from a first nations background, I'm wondering how the government is focusing on first nation and Métis veterans. From the past to the future, how are you going to address them?

[Greg Thompson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Again, we have ongoing dialogue and a good relationship. There are very few outstanding issues with any of the veteran organizations, including the Métis. I'd say it's a very good, very positive relationship. We work very closely with them. Every time we take an overseas trip, the highlight is often the aboriginals who come with us and some of the truly moving ceremonies they put on in addition to some of the other stuff we're doing. It's a very good working relationship, Rob. It's very professional, very good, and very positive.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Regarding individual programs, from the government's standpoint, are we looking at going into some of the first nations communities to address issues like post-traumatic stress syndrome, which some of the veterans have faced? A lot of them are not as mobile now in their senior years, and it's harder for them to find medical taxis or find ways and means to get off the reserve. I'm just wondering if there are any types of programs out there right now that would help address this.

[Greg Thompson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

We have outreach into all of those communities, which is ongoing, so there is constant dialogue with our veterans communities so that when problems and difficulties arise we know first-hand what they are and can respond as quickly as we possibly can to them.

We've had some of those issues, which I can remember from briefing notes going back. Some ex gratia payments have gone out to some of the natives in the past, and we reached out very quickly and effectively without any outstanding grievances or difficulties coming forward. We still have those outreach programs there, and those offers are still out there, Rob, in the veterans community.

The bottom line is that the relationship is extremely good, extremely positive, and my door is always open, and their door is always open.