Evidence of meeting #7 for Veterans Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was person.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Judy Geary  As an Individual
Cameron Mustard  President and Senior Scientist, Institute for Work & Health, As an Individual
Jean-Rodrigue Paré  Committee Researcher

11:05 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Peter Stoffer

Okay. We're back and out of camera.

First of all, I wish to thank Judy Geary and Cameron Mustard.

Thanks very much to both of you for coming before our committee today to help us further understand the aspects of the new Veterans Charter. How do we enhance it? How do we improve it? Basically, we're here to get that information from you. As a committee, we greatly appreciate you being here before us today to give us your testimony and then to take our questions as well.

You may be asked for certain requests in writing later. If you get an opportunity to put anything down on paper that you may have for future reference for us, you can send it to the clerk of our committee. We'd be greatly appreciative.

I'll just let you know that our regular chairperson, Mr. Galipeau, is under the weather these days. I'm sure he sends his welcome as well.

You have 10 to 15 minutes, so please proceed.

Judy, are you starting off?

You don't mind if I call you Judy, do you?

11:05 a.m.

Judy Geary As an Individual

No, not all.

Thank you very much. I certainly can start.

First, I'd like to take the opportunity to thank you for the opportunity to appear before this committee. My experience has been with people who were injured while at work, but I see disabled veterans as having been mentally or physically injured while working for their federal government employer on behalf of Canadians, and I trust that my remarks will be relevant.

In the next few minutes I will endeavour to provide some insight into why work participation is important to people with disabilities, even when they have income from disability benefit sources. I'll also describe some of the key features of sound work reintegration service and program design.

I'm certain that Canadian veterans with permanent impairments face some unique challenges. However, international work and health researchers are finding some universally common consequences of occupationally caused work disability and have identified some leading practices in work reintegration program design.

In general, there is good evidence across Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development countries that those with disabilities have lower workforce participation, higher unemployment rates, and less income than the non-disabled population. The utilization rate for disability income support programs has been growing across OECD countries, and the exit rate from these programs has been declining. Countries are seeking ways to reduce the cost of these programs by increasing work participation, rather than simply reducing benefits and allowing people to slide into poverty.

Just a few days ago, the International Social Security Agency, ISSA, which is an agency of the United Nations, ratified a return-to-work guideline at their conference in Doha. I'd like to add that these guidelines were actually based on a Canadian standard developed by the National Institute of Disability Management and Research in British Columbia.

Those with disabilities, including those with occupational injury or illness, are stigmatized in their workplaces, in their communities, and even sometimes by their benefit and service providers. If they have a prolonged absence from work, they suffer from an above-average prevalence of depression and other mental health problems. They experience elevated rates of marital and family breakdown, financial difficulty, and substance dependence. They experience significant levels of pain, even while taking pain medications. It is important to note that these problems exist even when the person is receiving a wage replacement benefit and are not necessarily directly related to the seriousness or nature of the injury.

Work is important to well-being. It plays a major role in identity and in self-worth, and it contributes to physical and mental health.

So how can effective programs to support work reintegration be designed? A foundational step is to place work at the heart of disability policy, replacing a passive “pay benefits and monitor costs” approach with one that focuses on activating people's abilities and capacities whenever possible. This includes emphasizing outcomes, such as work reintegration, not benefit management. Setting goals and targets and measuring results ensures that the employer, the insurer, and service providers are accountable to achieve positive outcomes for the disabled person.

A second step is to create a sound disability management program. Such a program would be developed collaboratively with the employer and employees through a consensus-building process that builds a common understanding and buy-in across the entire organization. Everyone in the organization needs to know about the program and be expected to actively participate when needed. Human rights case law indicates that participation in the return-to-work process must be substantive. The program should be staffed by qualified work reintegration and health professionals.

Generally, in an organization like the federal government, or its departments, a program that is common to all employees creates consistency, fairness, and more placement opportunities for those with disabilities. Carefully thought-out and competently executed case management is critical. One size does not fit all, so case management approaches need to be adapted to the needs of specific disabilities and to individuals. However, there are several features that are common to effective case management.

One is the integration of recovery and return to work. This is very helpful, because return to work is part of the rehabilitation process and it actually enhances a person's recovery. Return to work does not need to be preceded by recovery, as is often believed, except for a period of time to begin the healing process. Care must be taken, however, to not return the disabled person to work that is unsafe.

Early intervention to assess the circumstances and needs of the person and of the workplace, and to establish supportive communications, leads to better outcomes. High quality and timely health care is a must. It's not uncommon for special expedited health care services to be arranged. Opportunities for work accommodation or transitional work should be explored. Removing barriers is an ever-present task in coordinating return to work. Reassessment at regular intervals informs comprehensive case management as the client's health improves and circumstances change.

By “early intervention” I mean within six to eight weeks following the onset of disability, following injury. Setting and keeping case management timelines is urgent. After six months off work only 50% of disabled workers ever return to full-time employment, and by two years return to work is rare.

Finally, the incentives and disincentives operating for both the individual and the employer, or a potential new employer, need to be analyzed and adjusted to align with the goal of work reintegration.

While not an exhaustive list, incentives can include allowing the disabled persons to retain their disability benefits, in whole or in part, for some period of time. They can include adjusting benefit levels to avoid poverty, while still encouraging work; providing wage subsidies or tax credits to employers, particularly if they are providing training; providing job placement and job coaching services to the individual and the employer; making costs and cost savings visible to the employer; and rewarding managers for accommodating or providing alternate work to their disabled staff.

I hope these comments are helpful to you in your review. I believe they apply to veterans. The good news is that these program design elements have shown to improve outcomes for disabled people in many types of benefit schemes around the world.

Thank you for your kind attention.

11:10 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Peter Stoffer

Thank you very much.

Mr. Mustard, do you care to add any comments at all, sir?

11:10 a.m.

Dr. Cameron Mustard President and Senior Scientist, Institute for Work & Health, As an Individual

Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here with you today.

I'm the president of an organization based in Toronto called the Institute for Work and Health. We're an independent, non-profit, research organization. The name of our organization kind of says what we do. We're concerned about the ways in which work affects and harms people's health. But we're also concerned about and do research on the ways in which people's health impairs their ability to participate in work.

I actually was a member of the scientific advisory committee on veterans health that reported to the minister—I guess it was in December 2012—on the human health effects of depleted uranium. Dr. Pierre Morrisset was the chair of that committee and I believe spoke with you at hearings this past spring. It was an honour for me to serve veterans in that capacity and I hope our work was valuable to you in the standing committee.

I want to acknowledge, because Judy's quite a humble woman, that you have before you today a very talented public administrator in the broad field of how to accommodate people with disability and encourage their participation at work. She has had the history in the last 10 years in Ontario of designing and implementing some very substantial program reforms in the Ontario workers' compensation system, a story that I hope you have the opportunity to discuss with members of the standing committee.

I wanted to share three or four thoughts with you today. The first is if we as legislators—and I think this is a useful perspective to take—think back 40 years ago to where we were as a society in Canada in terms of our ability to provide opportunities to people with disability and think about where we are now, it's really important that we note how much progress we've made. Our streets and our buildings are more accessible. Our educational institutions are very good at providing educational experiences to people, children, and college students with impairments, disabilities and increasingly, our workplaces, whether they're public sector or private sector, are more aware and more capable of accommodating people with health impairments.

If we think back over the last 40 years, how did we get here? We got here in no small measure because you and your predecessors as legislators set some standards, both provincially and federally, about where we wanted to go as a society. And as we sit here today and think through our own personal experiences, we can all identify a family member, a colleague, a friend, whose opportunity to participate in valued social roles has been enabled by the way in which we've made progress in this country. There is, then, in my mind this specific context of the new Veterans Charter, reforms that were brought forward about 10 years ago after a fairly considerable period of thinking, talking, and discussing. I think the new Veterans Charter is among those kinds of reforms that are moving this country forward in terms of our ability to respond to the needs of people, in this case, the Canadian Forces veterans with disabilities.

Here's another thought for you. I'm a researcher. I like to look forward to significant public programs and be able to satisfy myself that the program administration is devoting sufficient resources to be able to say to you as parliamentarians or me as a citizen, we know what we're doing in terms of how our services are benefiting the beneficiaries. I have to say I'm impressed by how Veterans Affairs has devoted resources to measuring the progress of the new Veterans Charter. I think some of the components of that...for example, the life after service study has proven to be very useful and in its replication in future years will continue to be very informative in guiding Veterans Affairs and you in terms of the ways in which the charter services can be improved.

I have just two more comments. My organization has had the opportunity to collaborate with the research director of Veterans Affairs in Charlottetown. Over the last 10 years we've been impressed by the commitment and the talents of that group.

I'm going to return to a thought that Judy put on the table. In a sense it's a bit of a paradox but, the more we, as a research organization, look at this, the more we believe it's true. It goes like this. There is, I think, an enduring truth in the statement that for people who participate in paid employment, working is beneficial to their health. So, for those of us who return to work following a disability episode, or for those of us who return to work after a spell of unemployment, our health is better when we go back to work. It might perhaps seem paradoxical.

We have a stereotype sometimes that work is one of those things we don't like to do or it's one of those things that takes time away from things we do like to do, but it does seem to be an enduring truth that people's health improves if they have the opportunity to work. There are ways in which the design of the programs under the new Veterans Charter supporting Canadian Forces personnel in their transition from military service to civilian life represent to us really strong opportunities for that truth to be realized.

Thank you, Mr. Stoffer.

11:20 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Peter Stoffer

Mr. Mustard, thank you very much.

Ms. Geary, thank you very much.

We now proceed to our questions.

First will be Mr. Chicoine, but before we start, Mr. Mustard, I'm sure I speak on behalf of the committee that you never, ever have to apologize for being a researcher. We need those good people around.

We'll start with Mr. Chicoine, please, for five minutes.

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Sylvain Chicoine NDP Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank our two witnesses for joining us to share their experience in their respective fields.

I would like to start with a general question. Could you tell us about the claim process for a federal employee who may have been injured in Afghanistan. Obviously, a civilian employee is covered by the Government Employees Compensation Act. Could you explain to me the claim process a federal employee must undertake to receive coverage?

11:20 a.m.

As an Individual

Judy Geary

I'm sorry, I'm just getting French, so I'm.... Thank you.

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Sylvain Chicoine NDP Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC

Thank you for being here.

Anyway, I'll just restart my question.

I would like you to give us a general idea of the claim process for a federal employee—a civilian employee—who has been injured in Afghanistan, for instance. Clearly, those individuals are covered by the Government Employees Compensation Act.

So please tell me about the general process such an employee would have to undertake to file for compensation.

11:20 a.m.

As an Individual

Judy Geary

Certainly. First, any civilian employee of the federal government would have to report their injury to their immediate supervisor, whoever that may be, who then completes a report of injury and sends it to a central function here in Ottawa, or it may be in one of the other centralized service areas. It's logged there, and somebody in that operation determines for certain that the person is in fact a government employee rather than a self-employed contractor or something.

They then forward that claim of injury, that report of injury, to the workers' compensation board in the home area of the injured person. It's adjudicated there based on the laws of the province in which the individual normally resides, where their home is, or where they're working. So if a person was injured in Afghanistan but their home was in British Columbia, their claim for injury benefits would be adjudicated and then managed by WorkSafe British Columbia on behalf of the Government of Canada. The rules around the quantum of benefits that would be paid and so on would generally be those of that specific jurisdiction.

Does that answer your question, or is there something more you wanted to know?

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Sylvain Chicoine NDP Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC

That does answer my question.

As you mentioned, all those employees are compensated by the provincial workers compensation board. All the compensation rates that have been established by the provincial boards vary between 85% and 90%. For a military member, that rate is 75%.

How do you explain the fact that all the provincial boards have set that rate between 85% and 90%? Is there a theory explaining why the provincial boards have chosen those rates?

11:25 a.m.

As an Individual

Judy Geary

The rates that workers' compensation boards have paid across Canada have shifted over time. Over the last three decades, for example, there have been different rates paid.

In the mid-1980s, a significant analysis was done by some economists from Harvard University on behalf of the Ontario government. They determined that there is a very fine balance between incenting a person to return to work or disincenting them from returning to work arising from the amount of wage replacement benefit they receive.

What was done in Ontario, and it was subsequently adopted pretty much across Canada, was an analysis that indicated what the person's general take-home pay would be—net earnings after CPP and EI and all those things had been deducted—while they were working. Then there was a calculation made about other costs of being employed, such as transportation and clothing and so on, and those were deducted.

The idea was and still is that we should compensate people for lost wages up to an amount that is roughly equivalent to what they would be able to put in the bank or take home while they are employed, but not replace it fully, because if you replace it fully, the theory is that it's a disincentive for people to return to work. It then becomes a generous retirement scheme, as opposed to a reasonable amount of wage replacement.

11:25 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Peter Stoffer

Thank you very much, Mr. Chicoine.

We now move on to the parliamentary secretary, Mr. Gill, for five minutes, please.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Parm Gill Conservative Brampton—Springdale, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Let me also thank our witnesses for taking the time to be here with us to help us in this important study that the committee has launched.

The new Veterans Charter offers a suite of benefits that are focused on a holistic approach to wellness. When comparing the rates paid by the provinces for workers' compensation with those paid by the earnings loss benefit under the new Veterans Charter, we've heard time and time again from the stakeholder community that they should be equal.

Other than financial compensation, can you comment on what other benefits are offered through workers' compensation?

11:25 a.m.

As an Individual

Judy Geary

Sure. Workers' compensation jurisdictions typically cover all of the health care costs related to a person's disability. That includes special health care services that many workers' compensation jurisdictions arrange for their client population. They cover health care expenses that would normally not be covered by the provincial scheme, such as physiotherapy, some psychological services, occupational therapy, and all kinds of things. Any health care cost associated with the injury is covered.

In addition, they pay such things as travel expenses for the workers to go to their health care appointments or to meet with the workers' compensation board or their staff. They generally provide not just income replacement, but sometimes a separate award for the permanent impairment that the person has suffered. This would be an award for loss of function that is separate from the income replacement award. They also typically pay for return to work and vocational rehabilitation services that may be needed—or any retraining, education programs, or any special counselling the person may need to determine what type of vocation they may want to pursue, if they need to pursue a new vocation. They pay for those kinds of things.

They pay for medications indefinitely. For the entire lifetime of the worker, any medications that are required as a result of their work-related injury or illness are covered by workers' compensation, which is a significant benefit in some cases, because medications can be extremely expensive.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Parm Gill Conservative Brampton—Springdale, ON

Mr. Mustard, did you have anything to add?

11:30 a.m.

President and Senior Scientist, Institute for Work & Health, As an Individual

Dr. Cameron Mustard

Judy is the authority on matters of workers' compensation. Her answer is very thorough.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Parm Gill Conservative Brampton—Springdale, ON

Thank you.

Our government recently announced changes to the new Veterans Charter vocational rehab benefits. A veteran can now access almost $76,000 in flexible financial assistance for post-secondary education or trade and vocational certification, on top of a minimum of $42,000 provided by the earnings loss benefit.

How does this compare with benefits offered by the workers' compensation board?

11:30 a.m.

As an Individual

Judy Geary

Some workers' compensation jurisdictions in Canada do not have a cap on the amount of money that can be paid for vocational rehabilitation. Some jurisdictions manage it through very precise assessments of what the person is capable of doing and is motivated to do and of what training and education would be required and what costs are associated with it.

In Ontario, just before I left the organization, we instituted some limits on the amount of funding that would be available for vocational rehabilitation. The way it was calculated was by calculating the costs of a typical two- to three-year college or university program, and that was the limit that was set.

There is always in workers' compensation an option to make an exception in exceptional circumstances. It's just fundamental; it's in the act. So $76,000 would probably be on par with expenditures in workers' compensation systems. It may be a little more than in some jurisdictions and a little less than in others, but it's probably on par.

11:30 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Peter Stoffer

Thank you, Ms. Geary.

Thank you very much, Mr. Gill.

We now move on to the Liberal Party, to Mr. Jim Karygiannis for five minutes, please.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

Thank you for coming.

I have a couple of questions for you. Maybe you can guide me through this.

If you have a Foreign Affairs employee working in a hot zone in Afghanistan, or a military and a civilian, they're all engaged by the government. If they get hurt, will all of them receive the same package? Is there a difference between a Foreign Affairs employee and an army individual? Will they get different packages?

11:30 a.m.

As an Individual

Judy Geary

Yes. The services and benefits that the Foreign Affairs employee would receive would be governed by the crown employees collective bargaining act and the workers' compensation legislation that exists in the province that would be their primary place of employment while not overseas, or even while they're here in Canada. The armed forces person's benefit package and services would, if it's a soldier, be defined by Veterans Affairs and the charter.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

Would the Foreign Affairs employee get a better package than the military personnel?

11:30 a.m.

As an Individual

Judy Geary

I'm not an expert on the charter, so I can't comment on whether it would be better or not, but it would be different.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

Mr. Chair, can we ask the clerk to get us that information regarding what the difference would be between a Foreign Affairs employee and an army person?

11:30 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Peter Stoffer

It wouldn't be the clerk; it would be the analyst. I'll lean into his ear and ask him.

Carry on.