Evidence of meeting #16 for Veterans Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was believe.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Gary Walbourne  Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
Robyn Hynes  Director General, Operations, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Neil Ellis

I call the meeting to order.

Good morning, everybody. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on February 25, the committee is resuming its study on service delivery to veterans. After the meeting, I'd like to go in camera for committee business for probably five to 10 minutes.

We'll begin on service delivery to veterans. We have here today, as witnesses from the National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman's office, Robyn Hynes, director general of operations, and Gary Walbourne, the ombudsman. We'll start with a 10-minute opening statement from the witnesses and then we'll move into questioning.

Welcome. Thanks for coming in today.

11 a.m.

Gary Walbourne Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman

Thank you for the invitation to be here today to give my perspective on the delivery of service to veterans.

As ombudsman to the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces, my office is completely independent of both military and civilian chains of command, reporting directly to the Minister of National Defence. As an evidence-based, neutral organization, we do not advocate for any particular group. However, we do advocate for fairness, to ensure that any process or policy inside the department treats the members, both military and civilian, fairly.

Part of my constituency base is former members of the Canadian Armed Forces. If their issues involve the Canadian Armed Forces, they utilize the services of my office. If their issues have to do with receipt of benefits or services from Veterans Affairs, they utilize the Office of the Veterans Ombudsman.

As you would expect, with overlapping constituents, our two offices work well together. In fact, several members from my office have worked at the ombudsman's office and vice versa, including me. I spent three years there as deputy ombudsman.

Of the approximately 200,000 veteran clients at Veterans Affairs, we don't hear from all of them. We hear from the ones who slip through the cracks. Seamless transition for most ill or injured military members who require benefits and services remains a concept, not a reality, and is fraught with painstaking challenges.

Efforts to reduce complexities in service delivery have not provided the desired outcomes. Many of the available programs and services are overlapping. Others are frustratingly hard to navigate. For example, the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces, Veterans Affairs Canada, and SISIP, the insurance provider, all have their own case managers and their own vocational and rehabilitation programs.

Some of the offered programs become inaccessible through the sheer lack of awareness of the eligibility criteria. It would be best to have one knowledgeable point of contact that you can trust for the entire journey.

It is no secret that there are endless forms and long delays in adjudication. Paperwork, and lots of it, remains the primary method to obtain services and benefits from Veterans Affairs. At present, a file is transferred from the Department of National Defence to Veterans Affairs and then goes for adjudication while the member waits. In some cases, this could be for an extended period of time if there are complexities or nuances with the file. As far as adjudication goes, it is not, in my opinion, acceptable that there is a 16-week service delay.

I believe that all the evidence we need for the determination of attribution of service sits within the Canadian Armed Forces. Before they release a member, they work with them for an extended period of time, depending on the injury or malady. We know where, when, and how the soldier has become ill or injured. In my opinion, everything should and can be done before the member leaves the service.

One step to make life easier would be to start with the determination of service attribution. I think the biggest stumbling block, if we want to talk about ease of transition and access to care, probably starts right there.

I firmly believe that the Canadian Armed Forces are responsible to the member while they wear the uniform. I do believe that if the Surgeon General's office determines the service attribution, Veterans Affairs can deliver their programs based on the needs of the client, considering the injury or malady and the impact on quality of life. I also believe that there will always be a need for adjudication services inside Veterans Affairs Canada, especially for operational stress injuries, which many times manifest themselves later in life.

I routinely ask my staff and challenge them about what a service delivery model would look like. Why do I do that? Because as bureaucracies we have a tendency to search out process-centric solutions vice veteran-centric needs. For example, on the Veterans 20/20 project, the problem is that we're so focused on the project that we're failing to look at the outcomes.

As for ease of transition, as I just mentioned, I'm aware that the department is working very closely with Veterans Affairs Canada on their Veterans 20/20 project, now known as “Care, Compassion, Respect 2020”. I know that many task forces have been formed and that representatives from both entities participated. I do believe that these types of conversations will help, but I also believe that we're going to have to go back to the basics, back to the core way we do business. A fundamental change to the service delivery model is what is required.

There has been much fanfare about the reopening of offices and hiring additional staff, but I believe we should place as much effort, if not more, on changing the delivery model. Doing the same thing over and over again, as we have in the past, will not provide better results. We must challenge the status quo methods of operating within departments.

My office is engaged in this effort and is currently considering what a new delivery model could look like from a transitioning member's perspective. This product may be of assistance to this committee and should be ready within the next six to 10 weeks.

The last comment I'd like to make, Mr. Chair, concerns the families of these transitioning members. I believe that we can and should do more, whether in it's access to mental health care, respite, or some sort of financial help to assist those who are helping our members to transition. It should be considered in anything we do going forward.

I stand by for your questions.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Neil Ellis

Thank you.

We'll start with Mr. Kitchen.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Robert Gordon Kitchen Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you both for coming. I appreciate that.

You talked in your opening remarks about speeding up service. We've been talking a lot in this committee about service delivery and how we get it done. We're finding that service is taking a long period of time.

I'm wondering if you could share with us any further comments on steps that you think we could be taking. We've talked about how we identify the steps for the soldier right at the beginning and go through the steps with them. By the time they're done, they're familiar with everything out there and with what's available to them. As they step forward into Veterans Affairs, sometimes we see that files go missed. We lose things.

Can you comment on what you think might be a step, or one or two steps, that might speed that up so that we're not taking 16 weeks but are able to do it in eight weeks?

11:05 a.m.

Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman

Gary Walbourne

I think we can do it more quickly than that also.

For example, let's go back to attribution of service. What happens now when a member's releasing is that when a soldier becomes ill or injured, he or she is taken care of by the medical system inside the Canadian Armed Forces. We stay with that soldier up until the point where they receive a permanent category medical assessment and they're about to be released. At that point, we know when, where, and how the soldier was hurt.

This file transfer you talk about concerns the medical files that have to be transferred from the Canadian Armed Forces to the Department of Veterans Affairs. The issue for me is that if we determine attribution of service to the Canadian Armed Forces, there is no file transfer. We'll just send over the information that, yes, this soldier was hurt, and it is attributable to their service, and here's when it happened and here's what happened. Then Veterans Affairs Canada can deliver the programs they're intended to deliver—namely, the services and benefits the member requires, based on their malady.

I think we can shorten the process even far beyond eight weeks, but I think the first step we have to take is the determination of attribution of service. Currently for reserve force members, the Canadian Armed Forces makes that determination so that they can have access to the government employee insurance program. We're already doing it for the reservists. I think it should be extended to all force members who are medically releasing.

That in and of itself stops the file transfer. There is no review. When it gets to Veterans Affairs, it goes right to program delivery. I think we can do it, and do it very quickly. It's something we're already practising for the reserve force, and I think it could be extended for all the force members.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Robert Gordon Kitchen Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

Thank you.

I'm a chiropractor by trade, and I've been involved in many organizations. Over the years acronyms are on everything. It seems to me that every time we have a budget, we have an acronym change for every program we provide. Is that confusing to veterans?

11:05 a.m.

Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman

Gary Walbourne

I think it's confusing to everyone.

11:05 a.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Robert Gordon Kitchen Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

It's confusing to me, so....

11:05 a.m.

Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman

Gary Walbourne

We ourselves also have to reset our clocks and make sure we're aligned with the new terminology. The Veterans 20/20 project is now Care, Compassion, Respect 20/20. It confuses not only those of us who work and live in the environment but also those who are trying to access benefits and services. They run up against it, yes. It's a minor issue, but it does cause grief.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Robert Gordon Kitchen Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

Okay. Thank you.

I understand your office has been studying operational stress injuries among reservists, etc. I'm wondering if you could comment or if you're at liberty to provide us with any further update on where that is and what stage this is at.

11:10 a.m.

Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman

Gary Walbourne

The report is finished. The 28-day hold by the minister ends today or tomorrow morning, and we have plans to release the report at three o'clock tomorrow afternoon. Those are the plans right now. The report is finished, and it will be released as soon as the minister's hold has expired.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Robert Gordon Kitchen Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

So that's a “no” until tomorrow.

11:10 a.m.

Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman

Gary Walbourne

Until tomorrow. Sorry.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Robert Gordon Kitchen Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

That's okay.

When we deal with occupational stress injuries, which we're seeing a lot more evidence of, in terms of where they're located across the country, has the issue of people not being able to access these stress injury clinics ever been brought up to you? Are there any trends you might see in that area?

11:10 a.m.

Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman

Gary Walbourne

As it is for anyone who's trying to access health care in Canada, the further you get away from the larger centres, the more diminished the available services become. Our operational stress injuries review on the reservists will bring home this point, because these are people who really are out of the centres and are not attached to a unit or a home base. They are struggling to find some of those services, so yes, where you live is a great indicator of what type of service you will receive.

I have not heard any complaints from those who have presented themselves to the clinics—that they were either turned away or didn't receive what they required—but we do have members who have difficulty getting to those major centres to receive the service they need.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Robert Gordon Kitchen Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

Can these people access online information or make use of video robots or that sort of thing?

11:10 a.m.

Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman

Gary Walbourne

There is a pilot project coming out of Veterans Affairs Canada now, I understand, that will start to deliver these services, especially for the north. They are looking at some of these types of technologies. I believe any type of engagement that gets the soldier grounded in the start of a health care plan is of benefit to us. I believe we have to reach out with all types of technology.

You know, the demographic inside of Veterans Affairs Canada is changing greatly. The Korean War veterans are the ones we are talking about now, and then we have veterans just coming out of Afghanistan. There's a wide range of demographics, and they all have different wants and desires with regard to how they should be engaged. I think any type of technology we can bring to bear to help would be of benefit.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Robert Gordon Kitchen Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

Great. Thank you.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Neil Ellis

Ms. Lockhart is next.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Alaina Lockhart Liberal Fundy Royal, NB

Thank you very much. We really appreciate your presentation. You articulated a lot of the items we've discussed over the last several weeks.

In your statement you talked about the Canadian Armed Forces, Veterans Affairs Canada, and SISIP. I wonder if you could expand on the services provided by SISIP. Is it working well or is it a stumbling block in this process? I'd like to hear any recommendations you have.

11:10 a.m.

Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman

Gary Walbourne

As part of my opening statement, I talked a little bit about there being multiple players at the table. SISIP is another one.

It's an insurance policy. The Chief of the Defence Staff is a policyholder. Inside that program there's vocational rehabilitation, for example, but it has a $25,000 ceiling on it. The one at Veterans Affairs Canada has a $75,000 ceiling. There's a difference there.

The eligibility criteria to get into the SISIP program are different from what would be required to get into another program. It makes the system very convoluted. SISIP, being the first payer, does not give that releasing member the opportunity or the option of where they should go. They each have a case manager with a different set of rules and marching orders. They have different levels of financial support and aid inside of the programs.

It's not working that well, in my opinion. We made several recommendations when I was a deputy ombudsman at Veterans Affairs, and I notice the Veterans Ombudsman now is continuing with the idea that they should be looking at all these programs to see which ones are working well and which ones aren't. I understand there was a request for proposal released online a couple of weeks ago, asking for an entity to come in and look at all the rehabilitation programs to see the best way forward. That's a positive step, I think, but I do believe we need to start getting some of the complexity out of the system.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Alaina Lockhart Liberal Fundy Royal, NB

Is there a common complaint that you hear about SISIP? Are there any particulars you've identified in the work you've done?

11:10 a.m.

Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman

Gary Walbourne

I guess the biggest single complaint is about the program that SISIP delivers versus the others—the difference in financial support, the difference in the length of time you can attend one of these courses. That's probably been the biggest complaint we've received.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Alaina Lockhart Liberal Fundy Royal, NB

What about resources for guiding soldiers and veterans through this process? Are the resources there for them to get the personal touch as they try to work through this process, or are they on their own?