Veterans Affairs Committee on Sept. 22nd, 2016

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Ms. Lowther, when you said that policy proposals are above your pay grade, it's not true. Policy proposal belongs to all Canadians, so if you have some, there's an email and there's a clerk here.

Colonel Mann, I will have to move along very quickly, unfortunately.

Even if the culture of denial at Veterans Affairs is a myth, it seems that the trust has been broken.

Do you think the members of our committee are influenced by the people they meet who are in complex situations, people who are in a state of panic or crisis? Do you think the vast majority of veterans believe in that myth?

[Col Russell Mann]

That is an excellent question.

It is like the myth that all military and veterans' families are strong and resilient. That angers families. One day, my wife might be very strong, confident, and able to deal with various situations, but not be able to do so the next day.

She's a bag of worms and doesn't know what to do because too many impacts, both social and due to lifestyle, have piled up at one time. What we've done is create an environment where families never feel they can come forward because they always have to adhere to the myth of being strong and where veterans never come forward because they adhere to the myth that Veterans Affairs doesn't care, that it's faceless.

As Madam Spinks has said, we need more high touch to go with the department. The department needs a face. The department needs to become personal. When we say care, compassion, and respect; care and compassion are what veterans need to feel. When they feel that, trust will be restored. I think they feel it with case managers. Policy and program is not a case manager thing.

I'll leave it there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Thank you.

Ms. Lockhart.

[Alaina Lockhart, Liberal, Fundy Royal, NB]

I always like to ask this question because sometimes when we look at change we throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak. From each of your perspectives, what should we not do? What is working well that shouldn't be changed?

[Nora Spinks]

I think there are enormous commitment, passion, and conviction from the people we've come in contact with in the research community, at VAC, at DND, and within the veteran community. We don't want to minimize, diminish, or water down that passion, enthusiasm, and commitment by overburdening people or by over-focusing on policies, programs, and systemic stuff.

I think we have to make sure that the relationships—the personal side of the service—don't get watered down, but in fact get enhanced and brightened and do not become either over-focused or bureaucratized with respect to policies and programs. We have to make sure that we really find ways to facilitate and strengthen those relationships, to highlight the success stories, to dispel the myths, and to find the nuggets of knowledge and the pockets of excellence and really build on those. There are some extraordinary experiences, and we need to figure out what it is that made them so extraordinary and replicate that. There are a lot of those stories out there as well.

[Alaina Lockhart, Liberal, Fundy Royal, NB]

That probably speaks to your point about starting the relationship with Veterans Affairs much earlier in a career, too, and having it be a positive and not just something that happens to you at the end of your military career, I guess. Would that be fair?

[Col Russell Mann]

Yes, absolutely.

[Alaina Lockhart, Liberal, Fundy Royal, NB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Thank you.

Ms. Mathyssen will conclude, with one minute.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you.

I think it's more of a comment than a question. I'm very taken with what you have said, Madam Spinks, about finding those pockets of excellence. They must be there.

I'm looking at the report from the DND ombudsman, Monsieur Walbourne. He said in his report that the bureaucracy is just so overwhelming and there are so many hoops to go through that veterans end up frustrated, and they just don't know what to do because of stress and depression, which lead to, I guess, that lack of trust. If we're looking for those pockets of excellence, can you help us find them? If you can, we'd be very grateful.

[Nora Spinks]

Yes, absolutely. I think this goes back to the comment earlier about being veteran-centric as opposed to system-centric. Instead of having the veteran try to find a way within the bureaucracy, have the bureaucracy designed in such a way that it meets the needs of the veteran, so that the veteran doesn't have to try to figure out the mass of service supports, but rather, it goes in the other direction.

That sounds like a little thing, but that is a very big thing. It starts with respect, trust, recognition, individualization, and customization instead of trying to find these unique and complex individuals a spot in a box that doesn't necessarily exist.

[Col Russell Mann]

A specific example happened just this week. The ombudsman published that transition process for regular forces and for reservists, and it's a wonderful thing. It must have taken months to do.

However, if a veteran or a veteran's family is looking at that and does not relate, you've created expectations that cannot be met. Even though you had great care, compassion, respect, and intention, the way it's perceived on the other end is that they have to fit into those boxes, that they have to fit into that cookie cutter.

I can tell you that everybody I know who has transitioned has not followed that process the way it's mapped, so the message becomes...the big term would be “cognitive incongruence”. If I have mental health issues and I'm not working through those boxes the way I need to, I'm in trouble. I may even be triggered. I might disengage.

Great intentions, great work, and important work must be done behind the scenes, but that's not what you want to present to families. An individual, family-centred, and veteran-centred process has to be the way to go, not a cookie cutter and boxed process.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Thank you. That concludes our time today.

What I can do is allot each group a minute if you want to give a quick summary or speech to the committee.

We'll start with the Veterans Emergency Transition Services and Ms. Lowther, the co-founder.

[Debbie Lowther]

Again, I'd like to thank you for having me here today.

I would like to focus again on the collaboration piece. I've probably said it here today already, but one of our sayings is “collaboration, not duplication”. I think it's really important for organizations and groups to work together with the veteran at the core of what we're trying to achieve. If we can do that, then we'll have success.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Thank you.

From the Vanier Institute of the Family, Ms. Spinks.

[Nora Spinks]

Thank you so much for this opportunity to share our experiences with you.

For us, I think the real value will be in having that combination of programs, services, and supports at the community level that are responsive and reactive as well as proactive and interactive, the interactive being the partnerships and the collaborations. Debbie can't do what she does without the Salvation Army and without the veterans. We can't do what we do without CIMVHR and without the community organizations. You can't do what you do without all of the others.

Making sure that we have the proactive, the interactive, and the reactive as part of the package I think will lead all of us to success in our respective perspectives, and we'll be able to actually meet the needs of the families and the military men and women in this country who deserve and have a right to the services and supports we've all been talking about.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

That's great.

On behalf of the committee, I'd like to thank both organizations for all you do for the men and women who have served our country. Also, I'd like to mention again that if there's anything else you have—when you get home tonight or during the next couple of weeks—get it to us. We're going to try to wrap up the service delivery review this fall.

With that, I'll take a motion to adjourn from Mr. Bittle. All in favour?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Thank you. The meeting is adjourned.