Veterans Affairs Committee on Sept. 22nd, 2016

[Debbie Lowther]

To be honest, Quebec has been the hardest nut to crack, if you will. We have helped veterans in Quebec. I wouldn't say that this is our busiest province, by any means.

Recruiting volunteers has been a challenge as well. I don't know why. Having said that, we have a new person who just came on board in Quebec, who is a veteran herself. She is reaching out to the reserve units as we speak. We have been drawing on her knowledge of the culture in Quebec.

One of the things she herself has experienced, being born and raised in Quebec, but having served in different parts of the country throughout her military career, is that a lot of the military members in Quebec don't go around in their uniform and that kind of thing, or even say they are in the military. When they are done for the day, they take their uniform off because they are not respected there as they are in other parts of the country. She has said she has experienced that herself going out in her uniform.

I don't know what the reason for it is, but that is what we are seeing and what we are hearing.

[Jean Rioux, Liberal, Saint-Jean, QC]

I won't give the answer, but in part history can explain that—but it is changing a lot.

On the question about the Legion, is the Legion a good reference for veterans?

[Debbie Lowther]

It depends on the Legion branch. The Royal Canadian Legion's structure is unique in that you have dominion command, then you have the provincial commands, and then the individual branches. You would think that dominion command governs all of them, but that is not the case. Even provincial commands don't govern the branches. The branches govern themselves.

You could go to one Legion and get the best service, and then you could go to another Legion and not get any service. That is a difficult question to answer because it depends on the branch.

We work with the Legion all the time, because sometimes we don't have the resources to help, so we will reach out to the Legion. Sometimes we have a great result, and sometimes we don't. We've had Legions that have stepped up and said, “I can help pay this person's first month's rent and their damage deposit”, etc. Then we have other Legions that will say, “We gave that guy a grocery card a month ago. We can't help him any more.” It is very inconsistent.

[Jean Rioux, Liberal, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Thank you.

Mr. Clarke.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the three witnesses with us here today.

Wearing a uniform in Montreal is not easy, but it is not as difficult in Quebec City.

My first question is for Ms. Spinks.

Your institute deals not only with veterans' families, is that correct?

[Nora Spinks]

No, it's all families.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Okay.

In families other than veterans' families, have you seen the same kind of symptoms and crises as in veterans' families?

[Nora Spinks]

Really, when you look at military veteran families, they're like a microcosm of all other families. Whatever they are going through, whether they have trouble finding child care or they have trouble finding housing, is an example of what other families are doing.

The difference with military veteran families is that on top of what everybody else is dealing with, they're also dealing with the military experience, the transition out of the military. They are not necessarily connected to non-military as much as others are, although that's changing very dramatically. In the past when everybody lived on base, they had their own community; the army brats stuck together. Now, more than 85% of military families live off base while they're serving, and so the transition for the family is not as dramatic as it once was, because they're already in the community. Something we can learn from, and I really believe there's a lot that the rest of the country can learn from military families, is the way they are able to handle the situation they're living with.

One of the things we're interested in studying is families that are very successful, and what it is that makes them so successful.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much but, unfortunately, due to time constraints, I have to move on to my second question.

When you talk to veterans' families, what are the three recurring problems they face with respect to service delivery?

You may also wish to provide your answers in writing and by email.

[Col Russell Mann]

We don't have that information right now, but I can tell you that, for 25% of those who leave the Canadian Armed Forces, the transition is challenging. They were used to a military culture that provided support. As said, it might be difficult for the family, but the transition is a tremendous challenge for us.

Taking someone out of uniform represents a transition for that person. The person wonders who they are now and how they can access services. They have not had to use the health system or dental services on their own for all these years. It is all new, so the transition is the first priority.

As to accessing the services offered to veterans, the number of forms has been reduced. Progress has been made in that regard, but there is more to be done to simplify the process and how to navigate through everything available.

The two ladies seated near me said earlier that it is not always easy to know which question to ask. In my opinion, the second priority is accessing services that people do not know how to request. I do not have the research in front of me, but I check the information.

Finally, it can sometimes be difficult to contact people if there is no connection with the community.

I can live in a civilian house but I may not be connected to my civilian community. I have to reach out and become involved as a volunteer or as a member of that community. I have to get to know my neighbours and get to know the people who aren't in my military tribe. That could be a third challenge most military members face when they get out.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you.

Ms. Lowther, you said you are constantly dealing with veterans in crisis. What type of crisis do you see most often?

[Debbie Lowther]

The veterans we find in crisis may be at risk of becoming homeless. They may have an eviction notice in their hand. They could have failed to pay all of their bills for the past six months because they are struggling. Financial management can sometimes be a struggle when somebody leaves the military if they're dealing with a mental health issue. There are different forms of crisis. With regard to mental health crisis in and of itself, we have veterans who will reach out to us strictly for peer support, and our volunteers are happy to provide that.

There are so many different types of crisis. The biggest one, I would say, would be somebody who is at risk of losing their home.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Ms. Mathyssen.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

For this question, I'd like a response from all three.

Ms. Lowther, you talked about the increasingly complex cases.

Madame Spinks and Monsieur Mann, you talked about prevention and how important prevention is.

Madame Lowther, you talked about sexual abuse and trauma. This strikes me as very upsetting. We had the Veterans Review and Appeal Board here. I asked them about sexual trauma and sexual abuse, and they had no real answers regarding whether they tracked it and whether they were pursuing it.

What do we need to do? Have you any insights into this particularly distressing reality for female veterans?

[Debbie Lowther]

I think steps are being made in the right direction. We have the centre that's now available. They are trying to put resources in place. I think that talking about the issue and bringing the issue more to the forefront is a big step in the right direction.

With regard to the Veterans Review and Appeal Board, I'm not sure if you're asking if military sexual trauma should be classified as an injury related to service. We believe that it should be if somebody is sexually assaulted while they're in the military and their mental health suffers as a result of that. Even a physical injury that could happen as a result of that, we believe, should be considered a service-related injury.

[Nora Spinks]

Again, the military experience is a microcosm of the rest of what Canadian families are experiencing, and we still have a long way to go with respect to sexual harassment in the workplace, sexual trauma in the workplace, sexual assault, and sexual abuse. We have a long way to go outside the military as well as inside the military. It's a big issue that needs to be considered, and when it is considered outside, we need to consider and not forget that the military experience may be a little bit different. When we're dealing with sexual abuse or sexual harassment in the workplace, we can't just assume that necessarily all the military or veteran cases will fall under what our understanding of what sexual abuse is, because the military is quite different in its hierarchy and its structure and its codes. We can't make the assumption that if we deal with it outside, it will be dealt with inside; but you can't deal with it inside without dealing with it outside.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

It's a catch-22. I understand.

Monsieur Mann.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Thank you. That went beyond the time, so we'll start the second round. We should be able to get half of it in. These will be six-minute rounds, whether you want to split or not, we'll start with Mr. Kitchen.

[Robert Gordon Kitchen, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Now come the tough questions. Actually, Ms. Mathyssen alluded to this a little earlier. We had the pleasure on Tuesday night of seeing Contact! Unload. It is a very powerful play, done by soldiers who have the experiences. It is extremely powerful.

For someone like me, who comes from a rough-and-tumble world, it struck me immensely. I encourage you to see it, if you get the chance. Hopefully, the Vanier Institute might even take a look at that as something to use in their presentations, to show Canadians what this means. It is a very powerful thing.

It brings up the issues of how you deal with military families and the experiences they have, how they relate to their life experiences when they come back from the theatre, how everyone deals with things totally differently, and what they experience.

Mrs. Lowther, you are in the process of trying to deal with a lot of these soldiers who haven't necessarily recognized or don't want to recognize at this point in their life that there is an issue with mental issues they are dealing with. You are looking at ways to solve that problem.

I, too, come from Saskatchewan. I live right on the U.S. border. I have a number of veterans who are saying to me, in Saskatchewan that we do not have psychologists for our veterans. They have no access to it, yet two hours south of us is Minot air base, in North Dakota, which has a huge, immense service in that area. They are asking, “Should we be going there to access that service?”

I realize that maybe you can't answer that part, but how do you access these mental health services for these people?

[Debbie Lowther]

For our organization, we will often refer our veterans. We work with Veterans Affairs, first of all. We have a number of mental health care providers in different areas across the country who have been very kind to us and who will provide services to veterans—pro bono, in some cases. We have a lot of veterans, who, when they are first released, don't have health care benefits. I am sure you have already heard about that.

We have had situations where veterans in Saskatchewan actually fly, every month, to Edmonton to see their psychologist. I don't know what the solution to that is, and why there are no mental health providers in Saskatchewan. I don't know.

With regard to their crossing the border and receiving that care in the U.S., I think that would be wonderful. If it is closer than going to Edmonton, why not? However, working out the logistics of who pays and whatever would probably prove to be quite difficult.

[Robert Gordon Kitchen, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

We heard earlier in our studies from a number of individuals who suggested that we need to educate our soldiers from the day they sign up on how they are going to transition out of the military, and those steps.

When I look back at my life—I am an army brat, and I have travelled all over the world, base to base and country to country, because of what my father did—I don't recall my dad ever actually talking about how he was going to transition out.

My question is for you, Colonel. Can you give us your experiences as you went through that transition? Do you feel that if you had had those services earlier, that would have been of some benefit for you?

[Col Russell Mann]

At 17, I made decisions that I am benefiting from today. I can tell you I didn't talk about it throughout my whole career, but, holy-liftin', I am so grateful for the chief warrant officer who threw forms in front of me when I was 17 and said, “This is important; pay attention.”

Now the problem is they didn't do that with Veterans Affairs, My VAC Account. My VAC Account hadn't been invented when I joined. If those decisions are made at that young age, when bad things happen during your career, you are instantly going to get that relationship being developed while you are still serving. Automatically, at transition, it is not a sudden, abrupt cut, but a move into something you are already familiar with.

Whether you want to, say, take the service number and it goes with you post-release, or get a service number and a My VAC Account number that carries with you in release, it is absolutely critical to build relationships early to make the transition a less stressful and less abrupt process. I don't want to jump in the deep end; I just want to swim to the other end.

[Robert Gordon Kitchen, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Ms. Wagantall?