Thank you.
Mr. Fraser.
Evidence of meeting #34 for Veterans Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was thing.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #34 for Veterans Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was thing.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:55 p.m.
Liberal
Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Thank you all very much for being here today. It's really a privilege to have you before our committee to help us really take on the important issues you're describing to us. Thank you as well, Jeanette, for your service by supporting your husband. We all appreciate that.
I would like to continue on with you, Mr. Grant, if I could, following up on the previous question with regard to stigma. Within the forces right now, is there an issue with stigma, people not wanting to come forward because of problems they might have in the unit, or people being worried about promotion? Is that part of the stigma problem you're describing?
5 p.m.
As an Individual
Yes. Part of the issue boils down to this. If I admit I have a problem, I'm going to be punted over to the JPSU. That stops my career progression right away. If I admit I have a problem, that I can't do the job, people are going to start looking at me differently. They will decide to pass me over and go to the next guy who doesn't have a problem. It doesn't matter that my PER is just as hard right as the next guy's. It means that I have an issue I'm not willing to deal with, or that I have come up and said I have an issue. That will stop you.
Because of that, nobody's willing to admit they have an issue. Besides, let's be clear here. We're guys, okay? We're primitive beings in many respects. We don't like to admit we have a problem. Our whole society is built around the concept that the guy fixes things, and when you suddenly admit you have a problem and you cannot be everything you think you need to be, that has a profound impact on the way you see yourself and the way you do your job. Self-doubt enters in and it's a big issue. Rather than face that demon, they would just as soon plow ahead and say they're okay.
5 p.m.
Liberal
Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS
One of the things you mentioned in your presentation was post-deployment, and the need for education.
Can you expand on that a little bit? Are you talking about formal education for somebody to retrain to enter the workforce, or what did you mean by that?
5 p.m.
As an Individual
No. Post-deployment is the phase when you come home and you fix all the broken equipment. You get yourself back in the rhythm of what's going on within the regiment. What I'm advocating is that, rather than focusing on training as your regular run to the ranges, field craft, and that type of thing, start focusing on physical recovery, as in regular PT, education, sitting down with psychologists and psychiatrists, and understanding the process of PTSD.
Remember, PTSD is not something that hits you right away. It took me 15 years before I finally collapsed under it. If you can educate people, if you can sit down and give them the signs and symptoms...and I don't mean flying a Care Bear in to give you a two-minute briefing at the end of your tour. I mean have guys sit around the table together in small groups and just talk about their experiences. The more they talk about their experiences, the more they get those things out in the open.
5 p.m.
Liberal
Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS
Part of that would be proactively trying to determine who may have PTSD or early-onset—
5 p.m.
As an Individual
This is the thing. I can tell you about lots of my friends. One of them in particular had a drinking problem. We didn't know he had a drinking problem. His roommate didn't know he had a drinking problem. It wasn't until Christmas that he exploded on somebody, and they had to physically tackle that guy and get him to Kingston for recovery.
Why was he like that? Because he was part of Bravo Company PPCLI when they were hit by a mortar, and he was wounded and sent home early. His biggest issue was that he couldn't go back.
5 p.m.
As an Individual
When I was diagnosed with PTSD, I was a master warrant officer in charge of a maintenance company that supported a service battalion. When the doctor told me, I thought, “Oh, shit. Okay, I have PTSD.” The first thing I asked him was, “Am I fit to serve in the position I have?” It had a lot of responsibility, and he said yes.
Then, because I was a master warrant officer in charge of these troops, there was a secondary responsibility I had, at least I felt I had, and that was to let the people I worked with know I had PTSD. It's a leadership issue, as well. When you're in a position like that—and it's sergeant and up—you have to remember that there are people counting on you, and you have to come forward and let them know that you have PTSD, you're not fit to hold this position anymore, and get help. You can't hold it in.
For me, I had introduced myself to my command team partners. At the right time, after they got to know me a bit, I said, “By the way, I have PTSD.” A couple of things happened with that. In one case, the guy wouldn't talk to me again. The relationship was over. He was a major. I was an MWO. He was just thrown right off by the fact that his sergeant major had PTSD, and he couldn't really accept that. The relationship really was junked.
The other guy asked a lot of questions about what happened, how it was going, what I was doing. It became more of an education, and that's the perfect way it should work.
Nobody wants it—got it—but everybody can share the experience, especially if you're at the top, or near the top. Let the guys know that it's not a career ender. But you have to let people know, because you're in the military in charge of weapons and, really, it's for the mechanical health of the battalion that you're okay and you can still function.
November 29th, 2016 / 5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Robert Gordon Kitchen Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you all for coming today and for your service to our country. I include Ms. McLeod in that. I come from a military family, and I know that when you marry into the family, you are part of the team. A lot of people don't understand that in Canada, and that's been part of a lot of the discussions we've gone through.
Out of interest, could I see a show of hands of those who have taken mefloquine. Thank you. You may know we've done a study on this issue and we have some information on it. We can chat about it.
Anyway, I want to follow along a bit further.
What we do with reserve soldiers, when they serve and are deployed, as you're aware, is that we basically provide a position where their jobs are protected—or are supposed to be, I should say. They sign up and off they go. When they come back, the assumption is that they will go back into it.
As you've said, Brian, oftentimes they're just totally lost from the system, and where do they go? I'm just wondering. Do you have any suggestions on how to track them? What's a good way to make sure we track that information so that we know what's going on with not only our regular force but also our reservists?
5:05 p.m.
As an Individual
Sure. One of the things that you might not know with that is that there is legislation out there to protect jobs while people deploy. That can be a double-edged sword. When you look down in the States, employers know to look for that, and now on a lot of employment applications in the States it says, “Are you a member of the Guard? Are you a member of the Reserves?” That can be a double-edged sword, but I tell you—this is another interesting thing—the vast majority of people in the reserves are class A, so what you would think of as a reservist, on weekends, one evening a month in the summer, that kind of thing. Then you have class B, which is where they get pulled in to fill a full-time spot and put on a full-time contract.
You may not know that those jobs are not protected while they deploy. If you think about the irony of that, the government and the military asks the civilian sector to protect the jobs of their reservists while they deploy, but the reservist who put in full-time jobs back here in Canada, they do not protect them while they deploy. Most people will have to give their job up to go, and the answer you always get is, “Oh, it's a professional term of service; it's not a job that you were in.” Just be aware that those in the Canadian Forces are one of the biggest culprits of unemploying reservists when they come back from their tours.
What do we do about it?
Right now, we're in this situation where generally the battalion you used to be in phoned you after a couple of months, and that's a good thing. Your home unit will do as much as they can, which is also a good thing and shouldn't end. I look to what my friend on the left, Kurt, here said, and he said it in stages, and the order of what he said is important, so focus on this part, if any. You come home and you need the break, because someone briefs you on the plane coming home or the day after. We could make a laundry list of things you're thinking about then, but it isn't this. You need the time to get back, repair the body, repair the mind, get into a physical routine, and let the kids get used to you. Then we take you into the education piece of how to be healthy and how to assess your own health.
You're not going to be in that frame of mind on day one, and you're also not going to be in a position to be looking for a job in the last month of being on tour. One of the biggest things that kills you on tour is thinking about things other than your tour. We cannot have reservists thinking, a week before they come home, “Oh my God, I'm on this patrol but I'm really thinking, am I let go from my job?” That's where we need to go. That's what I think.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Robert Gordon Kitchen Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK
Thank you.
Jeanette, you talked about support or looking for support. What sort of support? Can you break that down for us? What sort of support do you feel would be helpful for a family member, and whether that support for the spouse or support for the children is going to help them deal with the things that they're dealing with and assisting the soldier who is part of that family unit?
5:10 p.m.
As an Individual
I would have to say it's the training. When I met my husband, he had already been diagnosed with PTSD. I had no experience at all, and although you contact VAC and they know that he's in a relationship, there still is no communication for the understanding of post-traumatic stress disorder.
5:10 p.m.
As an Individual
I'm a full-time job for her. She can't work because she's constantly looking after me, just keeping me level, keeping me where I need to be just to get through each day, which is the case for a lot of spouses and a lot of family members.
I have three sons who I haven't seen in years because my ex-wife thinks I'm absolutely crazy and that they wouldn't want to have any contact with me, and now they just don't want to. I've paid a heavy price. I wouldn't be here today if it wasn't for Jeanette, I'll tell you right now.
What she is talking about, the catalyst for getting help for me, bringing in the National Post and everything, was a former standoff I had with a SWAT team in Trenton that ended with me hanging myself. That was it for her. I was sent to Ste. Anne's Hospital in Montreal, the only VA hospital left at the time. Dr. Provençal himself ran a two-month PTSD program. It was quite effective and it was a very good program, and it was back at the time when we didn't have any programs. He had the only working program. It was all-encompassing with financial counselling and occupational therapists. He had everything structured for every day, and it was a great system. Whatever happened to it, I don't know. Now you've closed down Ste. Anne's Hospital.
For soldiers deploying injured and going into civilian facilities, civilians, first, don't have the time, and second, don't have the knowledge of what these guys require. Military medical people understand military people. They understand what they need. They understand what they're going through because they've been through it. Don't put these people in with civilians because the civilians aren't going to understand, and they're going to get frustrated. They're going to get angry because of outbursts or other things that are happening with the veteran. Put them in with military medical people who understand where they're coming from.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
5:10 p.m.
NDP
Irene Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to go back to the time when you were receiving services after you had been released. I wondered if you can recall, first of all, if the services helped? Did you have faith in the people delivering those services, and was the service explained to you in a way that you understood what was being offered and you felt good about what was being offered?
5:10 p.m.
As an Individual
I don't know who my VAC worker is.
I had one for years, and then she was gone. Then I went through three others within a two-year period, and then they were gone. I don't know who my current one is.
5:10 p.m.
As an Individual
Yes, that was a lot of the experience. They were doing a checklist like they were preparing to pack a Jeep to go back overseas: does it have this, does it have that? That was my experience. They had the checklist, and it was, “Have you been through this? Have you heard this? Have you received this package? Have you seen this page?” It wasn't, does it make sense to you? Nor did anyone take a real crack at trying to keep you in the system. It was just so they could then say a year later, if there was a problem, that they had ticked every box and done everything.
You certainly felt that was what was going on. That's what happened.