Veterans Affairs Committee on Feb. 6th, 2017

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Yes, November 28, 2016.

[Marie-Claude Gagnon]

Do you mean the statement about the survey involving 960 people, that had just been released?

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Yes.

[Marie-Claude Gagnon]

That survey did not include recruits, or those who were taking a course for approximately the first two years. This was the highest proportion of sexual misconduct incidents ever recorded, at least according to American research, as we have no Canadian research on this.

A lot of people took part in the survey, but it excluded everyone who had left the Canadian Forces, as well as those who were in the process of being released. In my opinion, that was a bit like conducting a survey to find out if racism is an issue, and leaving out all persons of colour.

The survey does however mention that those groups were excluded. I was told that they would be heard later, but that meeting never took place, and those results are now being used in all contexts. I do not know if anyone is even planning to meet with the excluded groups anymore.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I have a brief question for both of you.

When you're trying to talk somebody down who you know is suicidal, what do you tell him that convinces him to come back down?

[Brian Harding]

There's no surefire way to do it. Sometimes I'm talking with them while I'm getting somebody else to call up 911 and get police and an ambulance to them, and that has been successful on a number of occasions. Other times, if I have a better rapport with the person, I'm able to feel a bit more secure and I'm able to keep talking without taking that choice out of their hands. There's no hard and fast answer. You have to hope you can just develop a connection with them, that they can trust you, that they can feel what you're saying, and that you can give them a reason to get through the next short time.

The more things they have around them—family, in particular—the more successful that's likely to be, but no matter what, you're kind of rolling the dice. It's not a fun situation to be in, and you're having to do an ongoing risk assessment. Every 30 seconds I'm asking myself whether the situation has changed, whether I need to call 911 now.

The biggest one is if they're alone. I try to get them not alone. Once there are other people physically present with them, normally they're a lot safer. You want to get them to open up to that. I do most of this, of course, online or by phone.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you, Brian. Thank you, Marie-Claude. Is there any time left to give to Doug?

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Not really.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Okay. Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

But you did well.

Go ahead, Mr. Brassard.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and my thanks to you both for your service to our country and for engaging in a very thoughtful discussion today about these issues.

In the first three months of being critic for Veterans Affairs, Brian, I've done some research on you, so I know that you're very active on social media, as is Marie-Claude. One of the things I found is there seems to be a lot of fragmentation among veterans groups and organizations within Canada. There are a lot of different veterans laying out their positions through social media. We've talked, certainly on our side, about a way to consolidate the information that's out there, to consolidate the concerns among veterans into one forceful group, shall we say, to put their issues forward. I'm just wondering if you can comment on the value of one voice, one veteran, to deal with a lot of the issues that you're talking about, Brian, with respect to suicide prevention. I'd like to hear from Marie-Claude as well. I'm curious to hear what you have to say.

[Brian Harding]

You might have perceived, sir, that I'm a little bit opinionated. Imagine a few thousand of me all trying to come to the same agreement.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

That's the challenge.

[Brian Harding]

There are many groups. Some are very active advocacies. In my group, we're totally non-political. We leave that at the door quite forcefully, because it's damaging.

People see things differently. Some people can't stand each other on a personal basis and can't work well together. I don't personally believe that it would be viable to consolidate all the various veterans groups, the advocacy organizations, into one. It has been tried. I've never seen it gain any real traction. I think you are always going to have a very disparate group of voices clamouring for attention. We see that every time VAC holds another stakeholder summit, which they do twice a year. I've been to a few of them now and I'm surprised I have not seen fist fights yet.

Everyone is going to have his own perspective. Where you stand is where you sit. I'm here, and I see you one way. She's there, and she sees you from another angle. On the issue she speaks to, I buy the legitimacy of it, but I have not been able to see it the same way. Why should we all come and pretend we're going to talk to the same points when we're not necessarily equipped to do so?

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

Marie-Claude, would you comment?

[Marie-Claude Gagnon]

The Legion for a long time was trying to play that role. How many times have you heard of military sexual trauma when they were representing all of us?

Right now, the ministerial advisory groups are run by whoever they decide to put there. How many people like me have you seen there? It has never been our voices. It has always been the majority, what's common. If we always look at what's common, we never look at who falls through cracks, which is what we're trying to aim at right now.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

Thank you for that.

Brian, there is other one I want to ask you about. The previous committee's report on transitional aspects of getting out of DND and moving into civilian life spoke about a concierge service. The DND ombudsman also spoke about a concierge service and called it a low-hanging-fruit opportunity. Effectively what it means is that we would have a one-stop shop for those who are transitioning, so that everything is effectively taken care of for them as they exit the military.

I wonder what your thoughts are on that service, because I know you spoke about transition. You spoke about the difficulty, the loss of identity. However, a concierge service is something that has some value.

[Brian Harding]

I heard it referred to as a navigator. I can't recall if that came from Minister O'Toole or Deputy Minister Natynczyk. That was two summers ago, when the ministerial advisory groups met in Charlottetown. We all thought it was a great idea, and presently we're still twiddling our thumbs and waiting to see it.

I think it's fantastic. Veterans are not necessarily going to be familiar with everything that is open to them, but most are not going to hit the threshold for active case management. Most are simply getting out because they have this, that, and the other thing, maybe a relatively minor disability. Maybe they have these transition difficulties, nothing in and of itself catastrophic, but it's still a hassle to deal with, so if we had knowledgeable people to do that, it would be great.

The Legion does provide their service officers, which actually has a very significant overlap with what you're talking about, but that's something that has been downloaded to an organization outside of the government.

If VAC could provide that and if those people were not bound by expectations of reducing costs, if their managers were not getting bonuses for cutting expenses, maybe it could work. However, VAC will have to earn trust on that one before anyone is going to believe anyone if they line up to help them with services.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

Thank you. That's all I have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Go ahead, Ms. Mathyssen.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's interesting. I keep hearing from both of you that it's hurry up and wait, or that you're twiddling your thumbs when there's this idea out there.

For example, Madame Gagnon, you talked about VAC saying they're going to do follow-up and pursue this issue. I take it that this doesn't ever seem to happen. What kind of information should be tracked and studied by the Canadian Forces in order to really understand the needs of veterans who are living with sexual trauma?

[Marie-Claude Gagnon]

How many people who have military release have been medically released or quit after reporting an assault? That would be step one. Then how many of them tried to claim from VAC, and did they get accepted or denied? That would be another one. Then, what type of services did they get? Those would probably be the first steps.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

I wrote a letter to the minister. I won't say which one. The response back was that a medical release is completed with every member of the Canadian Forces before they're released and that this process includes a questionnaire about sexual health and mental health symptoms.

Can you comment on that?

[Marie-Claude Gagnon]

Sexual health is not military sexual trauma. That's just basically where somebody could have a sexual dysfunction because of medication or PTSD and be impotent or something like that. Those are the questions they have. They actually do not have a sexual trauma screening. That's what they mean by sexual health.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

They're still focused on the male members of the Canadian Forces.