Evidence of meeting #45 for Veterans Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was help.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Founder, Roméo Dallaire Child Soldiers Initiative
The difficulty is that when we come back, we're trying to go to sleep in a bed and in an atmosphere that is foreign to us. It's foreign to us because, and I came back and the slaughter of a million people or so didn't count. I was back as deputy commander in the army, and I was told, “Thank God, you're back. You've had your time overseas. Listen, the priority now is the budget cuts.” It was as if it didn't happen.
There is a disconnect in our ability to know that those people exist, know that we haven't finished the job, and know that there have been horrible scenarios played out. Then we come back, nobody gives a damn, and nobody really recognizes.
We have a horrible time adjusting to the opulence, to the pettiness, and to the nature of our societies. What keeps us from being able to handle it is our fatigue, our inability to reason. What does that is the lack of sleep.
Founder, Roméo Dallaire Child Soldiers Initiative
We can't get to sleep because this stuff keeps haunting us and keeping at us. If there are programs to do that—I know there are all kinds of initiatives—fine, but I would argue that we're into two major cultural frictions that are not easy to come to an arrangement with.
Liberal
Bob Bratina Liberal Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
Thank you, and thanks, General Dallaire.
The problems we deal with on the veterans committee originated with the period of active service, so I was impressed with your notion of the joint suicide prevention strategy. Obviously, two different groups are going to have to be working together in order to solve the problems. What would you see in that joint suicide prevention strategy? Are there any guidelines that you're anticipating?
Founder, Roméo Dallaire Child Soldiers Initiative
In 1998, when I was the assistant deputy minister of personnel, or what they now call CMP or HR, I was able to work out a deal with the ADM, a chap called Dennis Wallace at Veterans Canada, to second a general to Veterans Affairs Canada and create the first joint discussions. Our computers weren't working together—nothing like that worked. We couldn't even talk to each other. So we created a simple office where people had the veterans' files on the veterans affairs side and the forces' files on the other side, and a case would come in and they'd talk to each other and solve it.
There have been a lot enhancements there, but I don't believe it has gone far enough. I don't believe people are comfortable being handed over to another department. I'm glad it's in Charlottetown. People are still very human and not as clinical as Ottawa would be, so you're not treated as a number. And I think that's okay, but the fact that it's a separate department and the fact that you're being moved away.... Take my uniform off, but don't divorce me from the family. Don't move me to somebody else who has a different culture, in maybe a different atmosphere, who's running from a different set of gears in regard to rules and regulations.
I think it is time to look at those countries that have moved their veterans departments over to their national defence departments. They have their budget lines and they have their structures, and they're not tripping over each other. The client is not handed over to somebody else. The client is still in the family. You can do a lot of informal resolution. You can bring a different angle to some of the directives. With the Minister of National Defence versus the Minister of Veterans Affairs, you can give more power to getting in-cabinet changes done, I think, because it has a direct impact on the operational effectiveness of the forces. If you don't treat the injured veteran right, the guy or girl who's going over will realize that if they come back injured they have to fight the second fight, and that's coming home and trying to live decently. If it stays within the structure, you can be very candid and far more accountable.
Liberal
Bob Bratina Liberal Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
Thank you.
I wondered, going back to the issue of culture and stigma, what role does a chaplain play?
Founder, Roméo Dallaire Child Soldiers Initiative
Oh, what a wonderful question. At my child soldiers initiative, we discovered that the threat is obviously to children. During the course we ran last summer for 15 veterans—and we've already deployed some of them to train in Kenya with the Somali people—two of them came forward and said they had killed children. They had never told that to a therapist, never told that to their family, never told that to anybody, but they told it to these guys around them because they were going to be involved with children. They suffered that.
I think that the ultimate pursuit you're looking for is engaging them in...here's where my memory is shot. You take over.
Founder, Roméo Dallaire Child Soldiers Initiative
Oh, yes, it's the chaplains, the spiritual side of this thing. We've talked about the moral side. Our moral weaknesses come from the fact that we don't have a spiritual side left, yet in theatres of operation many of those countries still have a spiritual side. It's not purely religious. It's cultural. If you don't have a spiritual side to fall back on, then you're falling into a vacuum, and that makes your recovery that much more difficult. So the padres are very proactive and very effective, I think, in the field, and they're a second chain for resolving problems.
As an Individual
Yes, our national program director has just retired after 25 years as a Canadian Forces chaplain with a combat engineer regiment in Toronto. Through working with him and with Wounded Warriors, I've interacted with a whole bunch of members of the forces he has assisted over the years. At his Depart with Dignity ceremony especially, I met dozens of them, and we were talking about just that question. What was it about Phil, in this case, that was so helpful?
It was almost, within the regimental family, a place to go if you didn't want to go up the chain of command or tell any of your superiors anything about anything, because you just weren't sure how significant the problem was, or if it was even worth mentioning. It was a safe place within the regimental family to go and at least have that first point of discussion with someone you weren't fearful of, and you didn't fear any repercussions for saying something or asking a certain question.
It had a tremendous impact on how things went for them, from there on.
Liberal
BGen Joe Sharpe
Yes. I visited a major army base to interview the padres about their role in dealing with PTSD and OSIs. Fourteen of the 16 padres on that base had been diagnosed with PTSD.
So if we're going to use padres—and we need to, as they're a critical part—we have to take care of the padres as well. It's not a “physician, heal thyself” approach.
Liberal
Conservative
John Brassard Conservative Barrie—Innisfil, ON
Five minutes, Mr. Chair?
Thank you. General, it's good to see you again. We saw each other in Barrie at the opening of the École secondaire Roméo-Dallaire. I know the students, staff, and board members were thrilled that you took the time to be there for the opening of a school in your name, so thank you, sir.
Founder, Roméo Dallaire Child Soldiers Initiative
I'm putting all my artifacts there too.
Conservative
John Brassard Conservative Barrie—Innisfil, ON
I think I had to speak French the whole time I was there.
I want to talk about transitional issues, because we build our soldiers up to fight but we don't—for lack of a better term—break them down to re-enter civilian life. The issue of transition has come up a lot during the testimony. In fact, the DND ombudsman talked about a concierge service for those who are being medically released, to make sure that everything is in place. In fact, this committee issued a report to Parliament reaffirming what the DND ombudsman had suggested.
Scott, I know you were on CP24 three years ago, and you were asked about the issue of transition then. In the short time that we have, if I were to ask all three of you to list three priorities for what we need to do to help with the transitional stressors for those who are transitioning out of the military back into civilian life for the sake of their families, what would those three priorities be right now?
Scott, I'll start with you.
As an Individual
I wholly support the DND ombudsman's report and recommendations. I have said that publicly for far too long, it feels now, going back to that time, and obviously he has since produced new recommendations.
Conservative
