Veterans Affairs Committee on Feb. 1st, 2018

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you for that.

In discussion with many veterans who have experienced the barriers that Veterans Affairs puts up in front of them in their transition out of the military into civilian life and their entitlements or what they have earned, we've heard the ombudsman speak in various forums about some of the things that could easily be done yet fall on deaf ears.

More than once, I've heard the term “the four horsemen of the apocalypse”. Would you care to tell us whether or not you've ever heard that term describe the inner workings at Veterans Affairs?

[Barry Westholm]

I've heard of it, yes.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Would you care to share with the committee your interpretation of it?

[Barry Westholm]

That can widely be interpreted. I know what they're talking about. Once again, all the of things that you need to get help with from Veterans Affairs are so complex. You're going into battle again. It's a full-blown war sometimes to try to get things done.

The paperwork is immense. The way that you have to send it is very complex. Everything to do with it is complex, which really wears a person down to the point that some of them say, “I'm not even going to do it. I'm done with it. I'm going to make due with whatever I can and forget about Veterans Affairs completely.”

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I could characterize that in my mind as veteran-unfriendly.

[Barry Westholm]

Yes, it's very bureaucratic. Great people, but it's very bureaucratic. Again, the way they've done things at Veterans Affairs is that sometimes they dump it on a person at the worst possible time, when the person's severely injured and maybe lost his limbs. Then they come with these files. They say, “Well, you've lost your limbs.” This is Veterans Affairs. That's when they make the introduction. That couldn't be a worse time. Veterans Affairs should be making this introduction during recruit training and then carrying on throughout their career, so when they do become injured, it's familiar. They know what's coming. The way they're doing it now just adds to it.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

To use other—

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Sorry.

Mr. Eyolfson.

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Westholm, thank you so much for coming. We talked about the recommended tracking for Veterans Affairs clients. One of the challenges we've heard is that there are those who refuse further contact. This is a challenge that I have had in a medical career. I've been an emergency physician for 20 years. I've noticed that it a big challenge with patients with mental health issues. They need help, but they might have such severe mental health issues that they don't know where to turn. They feel frustrated. They disappear. If we see a chart from a psychiatrist's office, and there are three “Did Not Attend“ notations, followed by “Loss to Follow-up,” that usually means homeless or deceased.

Of course, there's the separate medical system for veterans. They're also part of the general provincial health system. What do you think is needed in provincial mental health systems in particular to help them at least alert Veterans Affairs or to somehow get tracking these veterans who, as I say, may have refused further contact but might need help due to mental illness?

[Barry Westholm]

The first thing I would say is that when you have a person dealing with a mental injury who is going to be released from the Canadian Forces, and you have a very shaky program for the person, what will happen is that he'll get very upset at the program and won't want to talk to anybody.

The first thing to do is to make sure that transition is done very professionally. Then I think you will get a lot more people who are willing to stay in contact. When it comes to the interaction among the medical professions, I know that the medical doctors in the Canadian Forces are subscribed to the college of physicians of the provinces they're in.

If you have a person leaving from, say, Ontario, going to Nova Scotia, you have an MO, a medical officer, in Ontario. You have a medical officer in Nova Scotia. Files can be transferred and there is an interaction the MO can do in Nova Scotia to talk to the medical facilities in Nova Scotia. It's a fairly straightforward way to keep the information about that soldier very apt and very efficient, because they're all under the same level of confidentiality. That way they'll know what's going on with the guy.

Look at the Desmond family. I guess he went in and no one knew what this fellow was about. I don't know how they're transferring the medical documentation between hospitals, but it's all digitized now, but they should be able to do that using the Canadian Forces medical establishment as a liaison. No question.

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Thank you.

I can tell you from experience that due to budgetary constraints at all different levels, the medical profession is actually still far behind in digitizing records. I left medical practice two years ago. We were still handwriting charts.

We've seen long-term patients come in with volumes about two inches thick, and sometimes they're labelled “volume 7 of 7”.

[Barry Westholm]

Gotcha.

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

There's even loss of, and not standardization, between hospitals in one given city.

[Barry Westholm]

Understood.

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Would you perhaps agree to an investment in a national standard of digital record-keeping, electronic record-keeping, as opposed to still relying on handwritten notes and fax, which is what they still use....

[Barry Westholm]

Yes, I couldn't read one of the prescriptions, anyway.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Barry Westholm]

I totally agree. I do believe that the Canadian Forces are digitalized now, but—

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

The forces are digitalized.

[Barry Westholm]

They can send the information on veterans, but I do agree exactly with what you're saying. It should be across the board.

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Absolutely. Thank you.

How much time do I have, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Two minutes.

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

I have two minutes. Okay.

Mr. White, this is a controversial topic that I have brought up several times. It's more of a CAF issue, but it seems to have an effect on veterans. This is the principle of universality of service. We've heard multiple testimonies from veterans who had ongoing problems, whether they were physical or mental. They did not come forward for help because they were afraid that, if this meant not having universality of service, they were out of the military. In fact, they might be able to provide vital support roles that just don't involve what they're doing. If your back is ruined because you're a paratrooper, and your chronic back pain prevents that, but you could still do something involving a desk or an air traffic control tower, there's been some speculation that it may be useful to have these people on a special status and part of the military culture that you've talked about.

Do you believe that universality of service as a hard and fast rule may be contributing to some of these problems in transition?

[Brad White]

As a career manager in the Canadian Armed Forces, I found universality of service was always a concern. It all depends on the numbers of people you have and your ceiling and manning levels within the military. In the old days, we retained all sorts of people who were in the medical category and did very useful jobs in garrison for us as a regiment.

There was always a place for them to be employed. But as the military reduced, those opportunities became less and less. If you want to take operational individuals and you want to move them out of the operational theatre so they get a break from operations, and they need a break from operations, what shore billet do you have to put them into if you don't have the spaces for it? It becomes a push-me, pull-me situation.

I fully agree that accommodations can and should be made with universality of service.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Thank you.

Mr. Johns, you have six minutes.