Evidence of meeting #74 for Veterans Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was military.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Oliver Thorne  Executive Director, National Operations, Veterans Transition Network
Mark Fuchko  As an Individual
Nora Spinks  Chief Executive Officer, Vanier Institute of the Family
Debbie Lowther  Chair and Co-founder, VETS Canada
Noel Lipana  Former Lieutenant-Colonel, United States Air Force, As an Individual

Noon

As an Individual

Mark Fuchko

I would say there's value in that, because when I originally got sworn in to the armed forces, there was a whole different benefits package that I was aware of. Then, in 2016, the new Veterans Charter came out and arbitrarily changed the terms of service without my consent.

The briefing I got on the new Veterans Charter was rather shallow on surface, saying there's a new Veterans Charter and it's supposed to be better. That was the extent of the brief I got on it. If there was a longer briefing on it, I can't recall one. I knew nothing about his charter. I saw individuals get injured in 2006 whose benefit package I thought was the same thing I would receive in 2008. Much to my shock and dismay, that was not fact, and I was unaware.

I guess the problem is, as a young gentleman, you're invincible, and you don't feel like you're going to get hurt. Benefit briefings aren't necessarily the most thrilling or gripping entertainment you can have in the army. Whether I received a brief that was really thorough or in depth, or I even paid attention to it, I don't recall. That's one of the issues we have. I think it may be a symptom of who's there and the way it's delivered.

February 8th, 2018 / noon

Conservative

Robert Gordon Kitchen Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

Thank you.

Ms. Spinks, I come from a military family. My father was a major-general when he retired, and retired along that system that you talk about at the end of the age. He knew he was retiring.

My brother served in Afghanistan in the second-last rotation through Afghanistan. For me, I've grown up along those lines. I do have an understanding of that. I'm glad to hear that you understand that, having not been involved with that military family.

A lot of what you said is very pertinent because families oftentimes are getting left out of this picture, and they need to be included. The eight points that you brought forward, I think, are tremendous because they do break things down on all those aspects of what that is. The biggest thing is that assimilation, as you said at the end, for families and veterans as they assimilate into civilian life. That's a big challenge for the Canadian public to get a handle on.

If we're looking at barriers to that, and that is a big barrier, I think, do you have any suggestions that could help us? Please be quick because I'm running out of time.

12:05 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Vanier Institute of the Family

Nora Spinks

Having listened to hundreds of family stories, I think there are three things. One, definitely link recruitment with retirement. As Mark said, young people don't think about retirement. There are the three i's: I'm immortal, I'm infertile, and I'm invincible. It's hard to get them to think about retirement, but critically important to do so.

Number two, VAC and government can't do it alone. We need better partnerships with community and community service providers on four levels. We need to build awareness; we need to build competency; we need to build organizational capacity, so professional competency, organizational capacity; and we need to build communities that recognize, embrace, support, and encourage military and veteran families to assimilate. It has to come from the community.

Number three, and this gets back to what Mark was talking about, and also what Oliver was talking about in terms of the culture, case managers need to shift from the current role of gatekeeper to a new role of navigator and facilitator.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Neil Ellis

Thank you.

We'll end with Mr. Fraser for four minutes.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you all very much for being here and for helping us understand a bit better some of the situations so that we can make recommendations to try to make the transition between the Canadian Forces and becoming a veteran a little easier. I understand there are significant barriers to transition and you've shone a light on some of those today.

Mark, I will start with you. I just want to understand one thing. I know some other questions have been asked around it, but it's totally unacceptable. I completely agree that to keep re-proving your injury when it's so obvious is completely unacceptable.

As I understand it, are you saying that this is at Veterans Affairs? This keeps happening when you approach them for different approvals or for something new. Is that happening at Veterans Affairs?

12:05 p.m.

As an Individual

Mark Fuchko

Yes, sir. What happens is every time there's a new benefit or there's an expiration date, a review of my file, I have to go to my doctor and I have to get this rather onerous piece of paper. My doctor would staple every single piece of information he had about me on there. He would physically have to write that I was missing my left and right leg. He'd have to sign off on it and then I would have to submit that for somebody's review who is not a medical expert, most of the time.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS

All within the same organization.

12:05 p.m.

As an Individual

Mark Fuchko

Yes, that is correct.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS

That's unacceptable. My understanding with the pension for life is that there will not be any need for any kind of further application or whatever. As a whole, for any other benefit, once that determination has been made, it's completely unacceptable to be asked again. I'm glad you've clarified that.

You brought up the issue of the timeline. If you're going into vocational rehab or you want to go back to school or whatever, there is a very short timeline, and the veteran or the releasing member may not be ready to do that. That's a really good point.

On the new education and training benefit that the government announced, which is up to $80,000 for education and training benefits or vocational training, the time frame is up to 10 years to address, I think, the issue that you've raised, that some people aren't ready.

I just want your thought on that. I know you answered a question earlier about the fact that maybe there shouldn't be any time frame, but do you think that's an improvement at least?

12:05 p.m.

As an Individual

Mark Fuchko

I think it's a step in the right direction. I don't really know enough about the new benefit to really comment on it too much because the package that I'm using is through Canadian Veterans Vocational Rehabilitation Services.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS

Right.

12:10 p.m.

As an Individual

Mark Fuchko

The way I had it explained to me is that I had this really narrowly defined window because this new benefit wasn't down the line yet. For me to continue to receive financial support and any kind of support, this was essentially the one and only opportunity I had to jump through that window and get some kind of education, retraining, and vocational skills.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS

Okay, thanks.

Just quickly, with regard to the point you brought up about you going to a case manager or dealing with Veterans Affairs and it almost being like you have to suggest the sort of benefits you might quality for, I completely agree. I know this committee has heard other similar testimony, and we've recommended that there be a concierge-type service, or a navigator, as mentioned earlier, to actually help you lay out the options and make you aware of everything. I completely think your point was well made, so thanks for that.

I just want to turn to Oliver, if I can, for a moment.

With the new education and training benefit of up to $80,000—I guess there are 10 years and different people might qualify—do you think there's a chance that the work that you do could have a veteran qualify to be able to access funding through that program in order to access your services? What do you think of that possibility?

12:10 p.m.

Executive Director, National Operations, Veterans Transition Network

Oliver Thorne

My understanding as it is now of the education and training benefit is that it wouldn't overlap with our program. Certainly, if that was a possibility, that would be fantastic. My understanding is that this is really for post-secondary education, trade training, something along those lines. I think our program is thought more of as a transition program, even perhaps a rehabilitation program. We do focus on careers in kind of the third phase of our program. That's more through the lens of career transition and particularly around that identity piece. Certainly, if that's another avenue of available funding, I'm not going to turn that down.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS

Right.

12:10 p.m.

Executive Director, National Operations, Veterans Transition Network

Oliver Thorne

Yes, that's something that we'd be very interested in looking at.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS

Okay, thanks a lot.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Neil Ellis

Thank you.

I'm sorry we're short on time today, but on behalf of the committee, Mark and Oliver, I'd like to thank you for the service you have done and the continued service you do for our veterans in the community.

Nora, I'd like to thank you on behalf of the committee.

Also, Mark, I know Mr. Samson had some questions he wanted answered. If there are any other answers you have, if you could give them to the clerk, the clerk will distribute them to the whole committee.

Just quickly, Mark, with regard to the form that they asked your doctor to fill out.... If you would be able to share a copy of that form, or the dates you have, with the clerk, I think probably some of the committee members would like to see that.

12:10 p.m.

As an Individual

Mark Fuchko

Absolutely. I'll have to go back to my old doctor, who I've since dropped from, but I'm sure I can locate that quite readily.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Neil Ellis

If you could, I think we're all curious about that, and that would help us.

We'll recess here for a minute to get the next panel in, and we'll come back in a couple of minutes.

Again, thank you.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Neil Ellis

I'd like to call the meeting back to order. I just want to mention that Mr. Jody Mitic has not been able to make it today. He is feeling under the weather. We'll get him back sometime, time permitting.

We'll start with this round. We have Debbie Lowther, chair and co-founder of VETS Canada; and Noel Lipana, retired lieutenant colonel, doctor of social work candidate at the University of Southern California.

We'll start with your testimony, Debbie. Thank you.

12:20 p.m.

Debbie Lowther Chair and Co-founder, VETS Canada

Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and committee members. It's my pleasure to appear here before you once again. Thank you for the invitation.

My name is Debbie Lowther, and I am the chair and co-founder of Veterans Emergency Transition Services, VETS Canada. I'm also the spouse of a 15-year veteran of the Canadian Armed Forces, a man who served this country proudly for 15 years before his career was cut short due to injuries both physical and psychological. He was diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder in 2002 and was released in 2005. Together we founded VETS Canada in 2010.

VETS Canada is a volunteer-driven registered charity with the aim to provide immediate on-the-ground support to veterans who are in crisis, at risk of becoming homeless, or already homeless. We have more than 800 volunteers working tirelessly across the country, who to date have responded to more than 3,000 requests for assistance. In 2014 we were awarded a contract with Veterans Affairs Canada, making us their service provider in the field of outreach to veterans in crisis.

The majority of our volunteer base comprises still-serving members and veterans of the Canadian Armed Forces and RCMP, who are equipped to provide peer support to the veterans we are assisting. We've learned that peer support is a key component in a successful transition, not only from a crisis situation to a more stable life but also from military service to civilian life.

This past year our organization conducted an informal research project in which we asked a series of questions to a number of the veterans we had assisted. One question we asked was what reasons they felt contributed to the crisis situation that led them to need our assistance. We learned that the top three reasons were financial instability; health concerns, both physical and mental; and lack of social support. What surprised us was that, overwhelmingly, more people identified the lack of a social support network as their biggest obstacle. One veteran made a comment that resonated with me. He stated that when he was serving he felt that he was a member of a family, and when he took off his uniform he became an orphan.

Because of the large number of veterans we've had the privilege to assist and the large number of veterans in our volunteer database, we are in a unique position to hear many stories of transition from life in uniform to civilian life. One thing that we often hear is that the members were not ready to release, whether that was due to an injury that cut their career short and left them mentally unprepared for their release; or perhaps they weren't financially prepared for the long wait time to receive their pensions; and they were certainly not prepared to deal with Veterans Affairs, which can be a cumbersome process.

We've been talking for a long time now about a seamless transition and closing the gap. While improvements have been made, there's still a long way to go. It's our belief, one that we know is shared by others who have come before this committee before me, that a member should not be released until he or she is ready. All documentation should be in order so that they receive their pensions in a timely manner. They should be connected to Veterans Affairs, and applications for VAC or SISIP benefits should be completed. Even something as simple as finding a family doctor would be a good thing to have in place.

While our organization's mandate is to assist veterans, we sometimes receive calls from still-serving members who are struggling. Some will contact us saying that they'll be releasing soon and they know that they will need our assistance when they do. If those members are in a situation where they need assistance from us, they should certainly not be releasing.

In April of last year we were contacted by five serving members looking for assistance; one was homeless, living in a couch-surfing situation, and was about to be released—a serving member of the Canadian Armed Forces who was homeless. That is not acceptable, but what is also not acceptable, more unacceptable, is that he was on his way out. That member's transition was already doomed to be unsuccessful.

Serving in the Canadian Armed Forces is not just a career; it's a unique culture. When members take off the uniform they struggle with loss of identity and they lack a sense of purpose. We have assisted many veterans who were successful in gaining civilian employment upon release but were not successful in maintaining it, as they had difficulty adapting to less structured environments.

We put forth great effort and resources to train our men and women who join the military, most of whom have just barely entered adulthood. They endure rigorous training, where they are moulded into soldiers, sailors, airmen, or airwomen. They are taught to rely on the person to their left and to their right. They are told what to wear and when to eat, where to be and when to be there. They are trained to follow orders. At the end of their careers, should we not put forth just as much effort to help them integrate into civilian lives—for lack of a better term, perhaps an exit boot camp? We know the value of peer support, and veterans have told us that social support is important. Perhaps releasing members should be paired with a peer or a mentor, someone who has already transitioned, who can provide that support and guidance.

Many veterans transition successfully on their own, and many need additional support to do so.

At the end of their careers, I think veterans just want to feel that their service and their sacrifice meant something. I think the very least that we can do to show them that it did is to support them as they move into the next phase of their lives.

Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. I look forward to your questions.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Neil Ellis

The next witness is Mr. Lipana. The floor is yours.

12:25 p.m.

Noel Lipana Former Lieutenant-Colonel, United States Air Force, As an Individual

Thank you, Chair, and members of the committee. I appreciate the opportunity to address you in this inquiry on barriers to transition.

If I let any of my “Californianisms” slip, and that becomes a barrier, please make that apparent. My wife tells me I'm not great at taking social cues. I think that makes me exciting and she also tells me that it's not the same thing as being fun or enjoyable.

In January 2008, a fellow airman and I were walking back from a mission briefing at Kandahar when we encountered about 300 of your CAF forces on a long dirt road returning from the airfield. Armed only with your guidons and your Canadian flag, you were still very formidable. The most powerful thing about that force, however, was its silence. That would not be remarkable, if they were marching in formation. However, they were not. Instead, they were simply walking together closely and with an undeniable resolve.

My fellow airman and I ceased our own conversation because we knew that the loss of a fellow comrade is the only thing that could mute your senses in such profound and lasting ways. Your forces were on their way back from a ramp ceremony at the airfield where they loaded the remains of one of your fellow countrymen onto an aircraft for their final repatriation.

I have not had the opportunity to formally and personally acknowledge that loss. I know our governments have had that exchange, but I'm here to tell you, as a fellow airman and soldier, that my battle buddies and I felt that loss very deeply.

In that light, it's a privilege to offer my perspective, as an ally, combat veteran, and disabled-veteran-turned-social-worker, to participate in a shared effort to repatriate the health and souls of the men and women who are still with us here today, regardless of the flag under which we served.

I spent the last 15 months of my 20-year career in the Air Force doing medical and mental rehabilitation for a mild traumatic brain injury, back and neck injuries, and post-traumatic stress. In November 2016, the Air Force medically retired me and I have since dedicated my time to try to intentionally shape the post-war legacy of OIF and OEF veterans. I believe that legacy is one of continued service to humanity, especially for marginalized groups, given the wisdom that only the physically injured and invisibly injured can hold. I think the preceding witness, Mark, is a perfect example of that. I'm not sure who wouldn't want a man or woman like that on his or her team.

As this committee knows, resourcing, educating, and coordinating those services is a messy business. It's like trying to weld Jell-O. It's frustrating, but it deserves our very best and concerted efforts.

Last September, CIMVHR impressed upon me the depth of talent that your nation possesses in research and academia and you're simply some of the nicest people I've ever been around. My network has since established working relationships with members in Ottawa, Toronto, and Winnipeg. These combined efforts continue to speak into that silence for the injured and uncover the resolve that I sensed from your CAF members back in 2008 in Kandahar to help through that transition.

If it pleases the committee, upon my return to the United States, I can give you in-depth answers to any of the questions that we can't cover in this session, especially for those American equivalents to your JPSU, VAC, and DND. My work study at the University of Southern California's centre for innovation and research on veterans and military families availed me of their military transition theory and the five elements for collaborative impact that drive a Los Angeles veterans collaborative. However, my cursory research tells me that many of the pains and challenges that you all face align with what we face as well.

I'm eager to answer your questions and I'm honoured to be here. Thank you.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Neil Ellis

Thank you.

We're going to have four-minute rounds and we'll run it right to the end.

We'll start with Ms. Wagantall.