Veterans Affairs Committee on March 20th, 2018

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Neil Ellis

Thank you, Minister.

We'll begin our questioning with a six-minute round.

I ask the committee to be patient today with the the time. We have another group, so I will be tight on time with everybody.

We'll start with Mr. McColeman for six minutes.

Conservative

Phil McColeman Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Thank you for being here, Minister.

In a report—I have a copy of it here and I'd be glad to share it with you—in The Globe and Mail published last week on Tuesday, March 13, two issues were brought forward.

The one I want to refer to was brought forward by Mr. Forbes, the head of the veterans associations in Canada. The article states:

According to Mr. Forbes, the new pensions for life will pay a maximum of $3,650 a month to the most severely disabled vets, while the Pension Act pays as much as $7,444 a month to qualified disabled vets who retired before 2006.

Mr. O'Regan has said there is little disparity between the two programs, but Mr. Forbes says the numbers prove that the minister is misinformed.

The commitment to restore the pensions for life has been the subject of veterans' expectations for the past three years, Mr. Forbes said.

But the pensions announced by the Liberal government 'didn't come close to closing the gap,' he said. 'We take the view that the commitment has basically been unfulfilled.”

What is your reaction to Mr. Forbes' comments?

Liberal

Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

I would say he's wrong.

Conservative

Phil McColeman Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Thank you. I'll move on to the next question.

This one is from the same article, actually, and it's that veterans are complaining that the new education and training benefit does not match what was promised in the days leading up to the 2015 election. Veterans groups are saying that pensions for life were also part of that Liberal platform and are paying much less. This is a quote from Sean Bruyea, a veterans' advocate, who says, "Politicians need to stop expecting veterans will swoon at empty political promises". It goes on to say that your leader, the Prime Minister, said, “ We'll cover the cost of four years of post-secondary education for every veteran who wants one."

The article goes on to talk about the fact that this is actually not happening, that this is not available to all veterans. Can you speak to that?

Liberal

Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

Sure. The education benefit is available to those who fall under the new Veterans Charter. That would be those veterans who have made a claim from 2006 onward. I am incredibly proud of the education benefit because it is exceedingly generous. It is $40,000 for six years of service, and at 12 years of service, it's $80,000. It's a grant. It allows veterans complete and utter flexibility on what they want to study. It can be anything and at an institution of their choosing. It covers not just tuition. It also covers room and board, books, and everything associated with their education. In fact, upon graduation, it also includes a small graduation bonus of $1,000. It gives them another lease on life, and it also provides them the flexibility to choose to do it anytime within 10 years after they leave. If they change their mind, they can do something else.

Conservative

Phil McColeman Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Is it available to all veterans, and you said no, just the ones after the new Veterans Charter came into effect. It's not available to all veterans as per the promise that was made.

Liberal

Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

It's for those under the new Veterans Charter.

Conservative

Phil McColeman Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

The promise that was made in the election campaign in 2015 is that it would be available to all veterans, but it's not.

Liberal

Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

Well, there is an educational benefit that is available under—

Conservative

Phil McColeman Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

No, full education, sir.

Liberal

Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

It's quite a good benefit under—

Conservative

Phil McColeman Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Could I go back to the quote? It's about four years of fully paid education and it's not available to all veterans. Thank you for answering that.

Let's move on to my third comment and question. The third one comes from a recent study done by the National Association of Federal Retirees. They developed a veterans outreach initiative in 2017 to determine what has and what has not been working for veterans. Under the title “Respect”, their 2018 report says:

There were two areas where veterans noted a feeling of lack of respect when dealing with VAC: feeling they have to fight for benefits, and some interactions with VAC staff. Many felt that processes were intentionally difficult to discourage applications or to deny benefits. While interactions with VAC staff were generally positive when they occurred, there were several instances where veterans identified that staff had treated them poorly.

If you're doing all you can, why are veterans still feeling disrespected?

Liberal

Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

That is a tough question. We are attempting to change the culture. From the time I was appointed minister—I think it was one or two days afterwards—the deputy and I went right to Charlottetown to speak to the bulk of the employees who would work at VAC and who would be in Charlottetown. We said that we did want to change the culture there. As I had described in my opening remarks, it was a “pull” culture that really left it to the veterans to find what programs and services were available to them. We did want to create what we call a “push” culture. In other words, we're going to tell you everything that you should be entitled to, and we'll do that in a pleasant and effective way.

I think I told this committee before that I am impatient by nature, and let me tell you that in the town halls we have been doing across the country since the beginning of January—and we just got back from Edmonton where we did five meetings in total and two full town halls—there is nothing that will hold your feet to the fire, with all due respect to this committee, than having a veteran stand at a mike and tell you, “I'm not getting the services I need.”

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Neil Ellis

Mr. Samson for six minutes.

Liberal

Darrell Samson Liberal Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS

Thank you, Minister and Deputy. It's nice to see you here today. It gives us an opportunity to get the facts straight, if you will, from the minister and the deputy.

I'd like to begin with maybe giving you a second to finish answering the question that was posed about the education support under the old charter, if you wanted to expand on that.

Liberal

Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

Sure.

Walt, I'm going to get you to maybe expand on it. This is available under vocational rehabilitation and it's up to $75,000, so it is a fair amount.

General Retired) Walter Natynczyk (Deputy Minister, Department of Veterans Affairs

Right. Just to be clear, the new education and training benefit is open to members of the Canadian Armed Forces who release either voluntarily, medically, or for retirement. For those who have released from April 1, 2006, if they have six years of service, they are eligible for up to $40,000, as the minister indicated, for tuition, books, and living expenses. At 12 years of service, they would be eligible for up to $80,000, again for tuition, books, and living expenses. This is on top of the benefits for those members of the Canadian Armed Forces who have been released medically, or who have a disability with Veterans Affairs. They would have up to $78,000—I think is the current amount—for their vocational rehab, education, training, and re-establishment in society.

The minister and I were in Edmonton speaking to one veteran who was an ordinary seaman and who was going through his Ph.D. in psychology based on the existing vocational rehab education benefit. This education and training benefit is on top of this vocational rehab program right now. Again, if any veteran, no matter where they are, has a claim under the new Veterans Charter.... We have many veterans who are both clients under the old Pension Act, as well as under the new Veterans Charter. It's a question of when they came forward with their disability. If they require additional assistance to re-establish themselves in society, they would come under this voc rehab program.

Liberal

Darrell Samson Liberal Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS

Thank you.

Minister, maybe you could expand on the supplementary estimates that show an additional $177 million in funding for Veterans Affairs. Can you speak on why we're seeing that increase and what the funding is for?

Liberal

Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

Do you want to speak to it immediately while I find the rest of it?

Gen (Ret'd) Walter Natynczyk

Sir, as part of the $177 million, the $45 million goes into the operations fund because we use part of that fund for treatment benefits. This is based upon the needs of veterans. More veterans have come forward for treatment and medications, but we have also seen a significant increase in the number of clientele using the operational stress injury clinics across the country. We're monitoring that and ensuring that we reinforce that support in working with the health authorities across the country.

Then the second amount, about $132 million, goes to the grants and contributions. That indicates the increased number of veterans coming forward for the disability awards. This is based upon our forecast that goes to the whole premise of our funding, which is a quasi-statutory obligation. We monitor the usage or the requirement by veterans and are able to come back to government and ask for additional top-ups as we see the trend throughout the year.

Liberal

Darrell Samson Liberal Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS

Thank you.

Minister, I would also like to share with you that many veterans I've spoken to in my riding and in the province of Nova Scotia are very happy with the budget line that indicates the expense credit for service dogs. This has been requested for many years, especially by veterans with PTSD. I know that my colleague in my riding, Medric Cousineau, who walked from Nova Scotia to Ottawa and wrote a book about service dogs, has been a strong advocate. I'll tell you that he's extremely happy, as many others are.

If I have a second to finish, you spoke about the various town halls you've held since being appointed. What feedback are you getting about all of these extra benefits, because these are major benefits? You indicated in your introduction the key benefits that are taking place as we start 2018. What's the feedback? Are they aware of these benefits, and how are they feeling?

Liberal

Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

I'll be absolutely honest with you. I think the biggest issue is that nobody likes a lot of change at once. On the upside, we are putting forth a lot more money, more programming, and more services than they've seen in a long time. It's a lot. It can be overwhelming for some of them. We find that the town halls are the most effective way of telling the narrative. One thing that I concluded in Gagetown was that it's tough, because you're not telling a simple story and it's not a one-size-fits-all approach anymore. We know that, which is why all parties in Parliament came to the conclusion, along with the legion and other groups, that the Pension Act had to change, and the new Veterans Charter came into place. We know now that we have a much better understanding of the challenges, both mental and physical, especially mental nowadays, that veterans face, the need for vocational rehab, the need for stronger programs and services. Now we also have the ability to tailor those to the individual needs of every veteran, which means that in response to a complex question you have a complex solution, which makes for a complex story. Politically it's not as easy to tell that tale, but it's necessary; and when you tell it that way, they get it.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Neil Ellis

Thank you.

Mr. Johns.

NDP

Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC

Thank you, Minister and Deputy Minister, for being here.

As we know, the new pension for life option, which is part of the planned spending in the 2018-2019 budget, could cost as much as $3.6 billion. This is a significant sum of money, but I think it's quite a bit less than what was promised to veterans by the party that is now in power, your party.

The 2015 Liberal Party platform said, “We will re-establish lifelong pensions as an option for our injured veterans”. So your party's document refers to the old lifelong pension that existed before the implementation of the new Veterans Charter. That is why the word “re-establish” was used, and not “instate” or “create”. The word was to “re-establish” it as it was before. It was clear and unequivocal language.

In a town hall meeting in Edmonton on February 1, the Prime Minister admitted that your government was still fighting veterans who are seeking the reinstatement of the lifelong pension, in court, “Because they're asking for more than we are able to give right now”.

My question is specifically about direct payments made to veterans—no other services or programs, just the direct monthly payments to veterans. If the old lifelong pension regime was actually reinstated, as the Liberal Party promised it would do, as you and your leader promised to do in the election, Minister, then how much more would it have cost compared to the watered-down lifetime pension program that you're delivering now?

Liberal

Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

I disagree with the member. What we said we would do is bring back a monthly payment option. In fact, I wish we didn't say “option” all the time, but we do, because technically that's true. There are a number of veterans for whom, later in life, the lump sum payment makes more sense financially.

We are nudging people, and this will nudge people, towards a monthly amount. We believe it needs to be monthly because there was something that didn't ring true to a lot of Canadians, and obviously to a lot of veterans, about the lump sum amount being the only option available. And that was this: it's a lot of money for a 25-or-30-year-old veteran coming out of Afghanistan suddenly to take on. If that's the only amount you get and you're not—

NDP

Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC

You're saying that it's the same amount that was promised before 2006.

Liberal

Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

Actually, it builds on the point that I was making earlier.

NDP

Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC

Just straight-up payments, is it more or is it less?

Liberal

Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

This gets exactly to the point that I was making earlier. More increasingly, this gets down—

NDP

Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC

I'm just asking a simple question. Is the answer yes or no?

Liberal

Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

I'm giving you a very complicated answer—

NDP

Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC

Yes, you are.

Liberal

Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

—which is that for every individual veteran, it will depend on their circumstances.

NDP

Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC

Sorry, Minister, I have a friend here, Mark Campbell. He served alongside Paul Franklin, has the same injuries from the same war, with the old system, and totally different benefits. There's a 40% difference when it comes to payments.

Minister, maybe you can explain this. It's just a simple question. Why are they getting less than somebody who fought in the same battle?

Liberal

Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

It depends on the individual involved, sir. I can only say it so many times. There are some who will fall under the Pension Act of 1919 and there are some who will fall under the new Veterans Charter.

NDP

Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC

This isn't what they were promised and what they expected, Minister.

Liberal

Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

With the pension for life, we are giving a monthly pension to those who are unable to work, who are unable to re-establish themselves in society. In almost every case, they will do as well as, if not better than, they would do under the Pension Act of 1919.

NDP

Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC

I just wish the government would be more forthcoming.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Neil Ellis

Could we just have a conversation as opposed to arguing over each other, please?

NDP

Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC

Okay, great.

In a letter to this committee, your department stated that there are “approximately 29,000 pending disability benefit applications (First Applications, Reassessment and Departmental Reviews). Of the 29,000 pending in the queue, approximately 9000 applications (First applications, Reassessments and Departmental Reviews) are over the service standard.”

Your government has now committed $42.8 million over two years to address the backlog in processing the increased number of claims. Was this dollar amount, $42.8 million over the two years, the amount that was officially requested by experts in the department to resolve the backlog?

Liberal

Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

It is very difficult for us to gauge, to be honest with you, how much it will cost us to absorb that backlog. You only have the capacity to absorb so much money. We only have so many people trained and ready to go at any one time. I'll allow the deputy to speak further on this, but certainly we were very pleased with that amount. It is not going to happen quickly enough to my liking or, frankly, to the liking of any of those 9,000 people who are waiting an abnormal amount of time for the benefits and services that they're entitled to.

NDP

Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC

I know you're saying that it's not enough money to do that, but will this eliminate the backlog? Do you believe this amount of money will eliminate the backlog?

Liberal

Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

The head of the union says it's definitely in the right direction and that it gives us a huge good start.

NDP

Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC

It was my understanding that they needed double to get it to zero, so that's—

Liberal

Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

I have not seen a figure that would ever put us at zero, to be honest with you.

NDP

Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC

So what is the figure to get us to zero? There must be a number that you should be able to—

Liberal

Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

I am not aware of any number. I just know that $42.8 million gives us a good start.

NDP

Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC

Okay.

I think I'm running out of time and so my last question is this. We know we had 4,000 staff working in VAC in 2012. There were significant cuts by the Conservative government and 1,000 jobs were lost. You've rehired. When we do the math, we're still looking at being about 600 people short. You're introducing new programs, and we can't keep up with the programs that we're dealing with now before implementing new programs.

How many staff do you forecast we need to be able to deal with the backlog and implement the new programs?

Liberal

Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

Right now we are focused on retraining those staff who are available and who have the experience to best handle the new programs.

NDP

Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Neil Ellis

Ms. Lambropoulos.

Liberal

Emmanuella Lambropoulos Liberal Saint-Laurent, QC

Thank you for being with us, once again, to answer our questions about the budget.

As we all know, when a veteran is in his or her transition period after service, it's often one of the most difficult times for them. They feel extremely vulnerable, and a potential crisis can occur.

Can you speak to us a little bit more about the veteran emergency fund, and just tell us how it's going to be different from what was offered in the past?

Liberal

Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

First, it allows us flexibility that we didn't have before. What's interesting is that when I first came on as minister, even though you're talking about a big department that dispenses billions of dollars in programs and services and has thousands of people in its employ, you actually have very little flexibility to be able to take some money and help somebody out immediately. That's some consolation to taxpayers, knowing that every dollar is watched, but it means that you don't have the flexibility to act very quickly.

Before this emergency fund, and in fact in the present day, we rely upon bequeathments, the people who have left money in their estates, for instance, and have set up dedicated funds to help homeless veterans, for instance. Even then, it might be very particular, i.e., it might be for a particular city, a particular province, or only under particular circumstances, so it doesn't allow for a lot of flexibility. This will, so that when we know that someone is in need, we can just immediately, for instance, get them off the street and give them the shelter they need while we assess what programs and services may be available.

Do you want me to take it a little further?

Gen (Ret'd) Walter Natynczyk

Just to reinforce what the minister indicated, the funding that we have today is all kind of tied to the eligibility of the veteran. When we know the veteran had an injury as a result of service, then we can dispense funds. As the minister indicated, up to now we've been able to use some of the charitable funds that have been given to the department. We have 23 different funds. One fund can only be used for those veterans at Ste. Anne's Hospital, one can only be used at Sunnybrook, and one can only be used on Vancouver Island.

We've also partnered with the Canadian Armed Forces and got great support from the Canadian Armed Forces from their morale and welfare services fund.

As of April 1, for the first time we will have public funds that we can dispense to support a veteran in crisis even before we've established their eligibility. If a veteran comes to us, no matter when they come to us, we can dispense funds and put a roof over their head, put groceries on their table, and provide them support as we figure out who they are, what their eligibility is, and move them on, mindful that we're working constantly across the country with organizations such as the Royal Canadian Legion, VETS Canada, Soldiers for Soldiers, and so on, because it really is a partnership with all of these not-for-profits and the communities, and there's a lot of great support from the communities as well.

Liberal

Emmanuella Lambropoulos Liberal Saint-Laurent, QC

Okay. Thank you very much.

At this point I've heard a lot about the pension for life option and I've seen, in a way, what's being included, but can you just speak to it a little bit more and give us more details as to what we can expect to be implemented as of April 2018?

Liberal

Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

I think what you're ultimately getting is financial stability for people so that they won't just receive the monthly amount but will also have that tie to the government—and almost to the people of Canada—that says, “Thank you very much for what you did”.

There was a feeling with the lump sum that not only were some people taking on a lot more money than they could handle and expecting that it would last for the course of their lives, but also that they were being written off the ledger, to the effect that “You're done. We don't need to deal with you anymore.” That's what we heard time and again from veterans, and that's what they were looking for. Now they have the option.

If the lump sum works for them, fine. In fact we provide money for independent financial counselling. They get $500 if they want to go to somebody independent to help them make that decision, whether or not at that point in their lives they should go with the lump sum or with a monthly option. We really are encouraging the monthly option, because if you look at almost any scenario, they will get more if they take the monthly amount.

Conservative

Phil McColeman Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Mr. Chair, through you, I believe my colleague said that the Liberals' pension for life would come into existence on July 1, 2018. I'd like it on the record, because we are on the record here today, that it is actually 2019.

Is that correct, Minister?

Liberal

Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

Yes, April 1, 2019.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Neil Ellis

Thank you for that correction.

Liberal

Emmanuella Lambropoulos Liberal Saint-Laurent, QC

As a former educator and teacher, I recognize the importance and value of education. I think what we're offering at this point is much better than before. I know that a lot of money has gone into it since 2015, but can you tell us what's going to change for the education benefits in this next budget?

Liberal

Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

It offers a lot of flexibility. Again, it's giving the benefit of the doubt to the applicant by saying, “You go and do what you think is best for you at this point in your life.” The ability to go back to university, to carry on to do a Ph.D., not only adds to your well-being as a person, but it can also help you with your employability.

I found the fellow we spoke to in Vancouver very interesting, because he had been through a heck of a lot and confided in us. Obviously, he's anonymous, but he had PTSD and other issues and he wanted to study it. He wanted to take it further, so he wanted to do a Ph.D. I think after that he intends to figure out how to help serve his fellow veterans who are also suffering similar conditions. That's a pretty great story.

Gen (Ret'd) Walter Natynczyk

Going back to one of the earlier questions, when we went back to the veterans' associations and asked how to move forward on this re-established lifelong pension as an option for wounded and injured veterans, many of the associations came to us and said, “Please don't go back to the Pension Act”—for exactly the reasons the minister indicated. It was a cookie-cutter approach. Only those who are most severely injured, with the highest level of injury, received sufficient funding so that they were financially whole. The vast majority of veterans have a very low level of disability, but if they have a significant issue, say a back issue or mental health issue, there wasn't enough there to keep them financially whole.

That's where even my predecessors mentioned to me to not go back to that, but to create a hybrid, to take the best of the Pension Act and the best of the new Veterans Charter, bring them together, and allow veterans to move forward. That's what we have been trying to formulate in this pension for life.

As the minister said, the additional pain and suffering component is a regular monthly connection between the Government of Canada to that veteran that says, “Thank you for what you've done. Thank you for your service. We recognize the sacrifice that you have endured for our nation.”

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Neil Ellis

Thank you.

Mr. Eyolfson.

Liberal

Doug Eyolfson Liberal Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB

Thank you, Minister and Deputy, for coming.

I'd like to clarify something from an earlier question by my colleague Mr. Johns.

He referenced something from our party's platform, that what we have offered is not what we said we would do in the platform. I have the platform pledge in front of me right now. It says, “We will re-establish lifelong pensions as an option for our injured veterans”.

Does that say we will re-establish the same lifelong pension plan that existed before? Would any court of law say that's the same statement?

Liberal

Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

Are you asking me?

Liberal

Doug Eyolfson Liberal Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB

Yes. What I'm saying is that I'm being told, “We will re-establish lifelong pensions as an option” means that we would—

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Neil Ellis

Can we have order here?

Liberal

Doug Eyolfson Liberal Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB

It was just said that this meant that we would bring back the pension as it was before. Is it reasonable to say we have somehow broken our promise by not simply bringing back the old one? Or, would you say, based on what we've done, that we've kept that promise to re-establish lifelong pensions?

Liberal

Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

The pension for life is a monthly distributed pension for life.

Liberal

Doug Eyolfson Liberal Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB

Thank you.

Would you say that we have kept our promise on that?

Liberal

Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

It would appear to me that it certainly is the case, yes.

Liberal

Doug Eyolfson Liberal Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB

Thank you, Minister.

We have heard concerns from many veterans about the time it takes to access medical records. Being a physician, I know what it's like getting medical records when I have patients from other provinces who aren't even involved with VAC. Even getting records from a patient's doctor's office to the emergency room sometimes takes some time.

What steps are we taking to close the gap between the Department of National Defence and VAC when it comes to information sharing?

Liberal

Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

Thanks, Doug.

It was the direct order from the Prime Minister on the day he told me he'd be swearing me in the next day: to close the seam. Interestingly, it was something that my brother, who's a lieutenant commander in the navy and was acting commandant of the naval fleet school in CFB Esquimalt, had said to me months earlier. He said we had to do something, without either one of us knowing that I'd be here, because suddenly he was involved in a lot of human resource issues and it became evident that people were coming out and they were lost. Emmanuella was referring earlier to the transition being very difficult, and you've heard this from veterans. When you're in a very structured environment for a long period of time—20 to 25 years, let's say—and you know exactly how your day is going to go and where your benefits come from and everything, and suddenly you're thrust out into the world, and you don't know, and you have to reapply for everything, and you have to go see a new doctor, it just doesn't make any sense.

We call it convergence, as you all know, and that's what we're working on.

I would say right now that the Minister of National Defence and I meet about once every week or two on things that we can do to start putting that process into place. I was almost singularly looking at pension for life up until Christmas. Now it's the communicating of the pension for life, and bringing it before the House. But it's also convergence right now and backlog. Those are my biggest priorities.

With convergence, what we would like to have happen is that service men and women would never know they're moving from one department to another. They would simply be aware of the services and programs they're entitled to and that perhaps they're moving over to other services and programs.

This does involve some issues with privacy. These were set up with the best of intentions. People shouldn't be able to throw around your medical records, which makes all sorts of sense. So you have a whole series of legislation and regulations to ensure that people's privacy, when it comes to their medical records, is held carefully. However, in this instance it doesn't work, because we want to make sure it is seamless. So we are working with Treasury Board as well to make sure those systems are put in place.

We all sign onto Google's terms and conditions—maybe that's not the best example these days—and say, “You have permission to use my information.” In a much more controlled and secure manner within government, perhaps we can find something similar, where perhaps early on in your military career you can agree that you are willing to share your military records post-service with Veterans Affairs Canada.

Gen (Ret'd) Walter Natynczyk

I should also say that our clientele come to us not only while they're in uniform and on transition, but that the vast majority actually come to us after they've released from the Canadian Armed Forces. In fact about 25% of our clientele come to us while they're still serving, another 25% come in that two years after they release, and then 50% come to us from about year two to year 50 or 60. Sometimes those records are no longer in the Canadian Armed Forces; they're actually in Library and Archives. So actually getting all those files together, and then joining them up with a more recent diagnosis, is quite a challenge even over and above the comments about privacy that the minister mentioned.

Liberal

Doug Eyolfson Liberal Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB

We've heard about of the role of caregivers in the day-to-day roles of veterans. Can you speak to any upcoming benefits that might address this role?

Liberal

Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

That benefit starts April 1. It will be paid to the caregiver, it is tax-free, and it is $1,000.

Liberal

Doug Eyolfson Liberal Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB

Thank you.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Neil Ellis

Ms. Wagantall, you have six minutes.

Conservative

Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being here today.

My questions will revolve around your conversation on closing the seam.

I had five different conversations with veterans, and I'm beginning to find where they are in Saskatchewan because they are trying to connect with me. One particular individual, who is not in Saskatchewan right now, is posted into JPSU waiting for medical release. He was told he can't be released, won't be released, until everything is in place and that his contract would not be up until 2020.

His wing surgeon sent confirmation to Ottawa that he was approved for service-related medical release. The report included testimony from the base doctor, the base psychiatrist, his case manager, and his civilian doctor. The response back from VAC, which his doctor could not believe, was that more proof was required. We're trying to close this seam and who knows better whether that person who's being medically released from service is released due to service injuries—DND or VAC?

I had this conversation on February 15 with Ms. Elizabeth Douglas, because the ombudsman had indicated that they recommended that at the initial release from service, DND clarify whether or not the release was due to service or not. Her response to my request to have her perspective was that VAC believed this is a VAC function. I went on to ask if it would not streamline the process—which is what we're trying desperately to do here for these guys and gals—if it were at least deemed when they left the armed forces that their injury was or was not due to service. She continued to say that she felt it was their responsibility.

I'm going to quote one more statement. I asked who would know better when it comes to serving in the armed forces whether that injury causing release was due to their service? Would it be VAC or DND? Right now, in her report, she has said the integration of VAC staff with the IPSCs has given VAC the opportunity to better understand military culture. I find it very disturbing that we have to find ways for VAC to better understand military culture to deal with an issue that could be taken care of long ahead of their leaving, and then taking months for it do so. What's slowing them down in getting their VAC services is not ignorance of what they qualify for, but the amount of time it takes for their release to be identified as being a result a service-related injury.

Is that not something, Minister, that you could do immediately and say, from now on when they're being released VAC will know, as the releasing service member comes over, that this is a service-related injury? Yes or no?

Liberal

Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

I can't say yes or no, Ms. Wagantall, other than to say that every case being every case.... I'm as frustrated hearing that story as anybody would be, save, obviously, for the people who are actually involved. We can't do this fast enough. The direction we are attempting to go in is to identify the immediate things we can address right now. In some of it we're going to get into legislation and regulation and bigger beasts. I'm not going to let that intimidate us. We're going to try to find the smaller things that we can do. I'm hearing this story again and again at town halls, and I'm happy to say—

Conservative

Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK

What would be the—

Liberal

Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

—just by way of reference because it's important—that Admiral John Newton, who's been tasked by the Chief of the Defence Staff to follow us in these town halls, does attend and we hear about these cases.

Conservative

Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK

I'd ask, what is the rationale for needing to wait to VAC to make that determination? I know there are other injuries that come along over time, and I totally get those. However, we're talking about when they are released as part of being prepared completely to transition. Yet, that one decision of whether it's service-related cannot be given to them before they're released.

Gen (Ret'd) Walter Natynczyk

First of all, thanks very much for the question because it is absolutely fundamental.

As I mentioned before, about three-quarters of the clientele who come to VAC come after their release, so they have left the Canadian Armed Forces either on retirement or voluntarily and then come to us at some point in the future. One of the key aspects is, are we standardized across the board in terms of attribution of service and non-service? I think it's absolutely terrific that the Canadian Armed Forces are holding on to these men and women until everything is done. While they're in uniform, they have the best medical care the country can provide. They have their income for as long as they stay in uniform, which is absolutely terrific. I can't comment upon an individual case; it would be inappropriate. Keep in mind that the minister's responsibility under the new Veterans Charter is for service-related injuries. At the same time, the crown pays for a significant portion of the service income security insurance plan program, SISIP. The key purpose it's there is non-service related and, based upon the program arrangement we have, it's also the first payer for both service and non-service. Even if for the individual—and I'm not talking about a specific case—their injuries are not attributed to service, then they have the full SISIP program, upon which the new Veterans Charter will pay.

Conservative

Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK

I know all of this. It's a simple question, though. We're trying to improve the transition process for these people. It's a simple determination to change that, so that when they leave and they're being removed due to medical reasons, are those medical reasons due to service, yes or no?

I'll just leave it at that.

I have another quick question. In the budget, the example for lifelong pensions is a particular service member who served for 25 years, the full 25 years, and then suffered a severe injury and was released. In the example of that scenario, can you tell me realistically how many of our individuals who are released with 100% disability have that happen after 25 years of service?

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Neil Ellis

Can I ask you to make it short, please? We're out of time.

Liberal

Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

The bulk of the cases we see are actually hearing loss and tinnitus. If I was going to point to anything that would be the driving force behind the flexibility we wanted pension-for-life to have, it would be PTSD, because those are cases where something can happen and it can take hold five or 10 years down the road. We wanted to make sure that the system was flexible enough to be able to suit that individual. That was—

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Neil Ellis

Thank you.

Mr. Bratina, you have six minutes, please.

Liberal

Bob Bratina Liberal Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

Thank you.

I was in a steel mill the other day and talking to a steelworker about my job. He asked what I did, and I said, “I'm on the veterans committee and I'm quite proud of the work we do.” He said, “Well, I'm a veteran.” I said, “Do you have a My VAC Account?” He said, “What's that?” Honestly, I've had that same or similar conversation, so on the push-pull, does the push include reaching out? Can you tell me about that part of it? We still have people who don't know that there are things available to them and easily accessible.

Liberal

Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

I don't want you to think we're leaving the push only to My VAC. We're not, although I'm not going to make any sweeping generalizations about what age group uses apps on an iPad. We've seen all ages that have gone to and have been attracted to the My VAC Account. We've seen a huge uptick in the number of people who are opening My VAC Accounts.

Liberal

Bob Bratina Liberal Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

You are?

Liberal

Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

Yes, which is really good. It's been quite a lot of uptake.

A voice

It has been in excess of 60,000.

Liberal

Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

Yes, it has been in excess of 60,000, the bulk of which has been in the last couple of years.

It's much easier. Everything is set up: what medical records are relevant that you have. It's all included. It also leads you directly to where we want you to go on direct deposit and all sorts of things.

We keep trying to improve My VAC to keep up with that demand and keep up with capacity. Also, to your point, whether it's guided support or case management, it's an attempt to find out your circumstances and then tell you about what you are eligible for, as opposed to just totally sitting back and wondering if they're going to find out about what they're eligible for. That's the sea change that had to take place, and it can't happen quickly enough.

Liberal

Bob Bratina Liberal Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

In your opening remarks, you talked about the supplementary estimates, the $45 million and the $132 million. On the grants and contributions, can you just flesh out a bit for me what the $132 million is dedicated towards?

Liberal

Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

The forecast for the disability pension grant decreased due to fewer eligible war service veterans than originally forecast. This is an example. VAC reallocates this money to programs that require additional funding before seeking new funding from the fiscal framework. The transfer payment table lists all the grants that require an increase in authority regardless of whether new funding was required, and this is the reason that the total of these grants and contributions exceeds the amount of new funding being requested.

Liberal

Bob Bratina Liberal Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

I see. Okay.

The veteran emergency fund is another situation where knowledge of the fund might be the problem. Generally speaking, how is that working? What is the intake of requests for those kinds of emergency funds?

Gen (Ret'd) Walter Natynczyk

Again, Chair, ladies and gentlemen, the veteran emergency fund will start on April 1. At every one of our 37 locations across the country, there will be people delegated to be able to spend those funds for any veteran in crisis. In addition to that, we're setting up a hotline to be able to work with our partners, which are the Royal Canadian Legion, VETS Canada, Soldiers for Soldiers, and Veterans Helping Veterans, in order to be able to get funding as a bridge to ensure that those veterans who show up on a weekend, in an evening, in the middle of the night, or on a Friday afternoon can at least have shelter, can have some support while we try to figure out who they are.

Again, some veterans don't want to be found yet. The minister and I were out in Victoria at Cockrell House, supported by the Royal Canadian Legion. Because of the temperate climate of Vancouver Island, many veterans move across the country and go out west, and they camp out. To see these veterans come in, some who have been out of the military for many years, and to see, in this case, the Royal Canadian Legion working with VAC to bring these folks in and put a roof over their heads while they figure out who they are, then get them into addiction treatment, mental health treatment, or vocational rehab, and to see the graduates of the program brief the minister was absolutely phenomenal.

Liberal

Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

But they had to come to that conclusion themselves: they were out and then they decided, when they were ready, to come in.

It's complicated, and that's not to make excuses. We need to have the resources available and ready from when they need help, but it's not always easy.

Also, there are triggers. For a lot of veterans who are mentally ill at the time and need help, there are certain triggers for them. Finding them an environment where there are identifiable military people, where people are wearing uniforms, for instance, can make a situation go from bad to worse. In fact, I've witnessed that myself. We were in a meeting and an individual was triggered by somebody who was wearing a uniform.

Liberal

Bob Bratina Liberal Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

We heard testimony that these guys are well trained to not be found if that's their choice.

Liberal

Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

Yes.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Neil Ellis

Mr. Kitchen, you have five minutes.

Conservative

Robert Gordon Kitchen Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister and General, it's good to see you again. Thank you for coming.

We're discussing interim estimates today. Like it is for a business, these are yearly projections that are based on costs and on our expectations for the next year. That said, the government has just announced that it is going to commit our soldiers to Mali. I recognize that most of the budgetary aspect of this...and I assume prudent analysis was done on this mission. I also recognize that the budgetary funding should have been—I'm assuming it will be—discussed with the National Defence estimates.

However, these soldiers—airmen, airwomen—will be our future veterans. Therefore, there should have been some planning, costing, and proactive analysis done for the increased expenses that will occur. These increases could be in health care costs, transition costs, and disability costs, and God forbid someone comes home with a death.... There are family costs and analysis all factored into this part. We are dealing with the issues of PTSD that we have learned about, and I suspect there will be concerns about anti-malarial medication issues.

We know that the UN basically pays for the personnel while they're there, but it does not pay for the transition for our veterans. These things will happen immediately. They could transpire from the moment it happens, and we could have numbers coming back the very next day. Those numbers should be factored in.

Minister, I also know—we all know—that you are an assistant deputy minister. You have also indicated to us today that you talk to the defence minister weekly, so you should have been at the table. I assume you were. As you've told us many times, you have committed to our veterans, so you would have brought up these issues at that table. The Liberals brought us into Afghanistan, and now they're taking us into Mali. I'm hoping that we learn something from that aspect of it. Where in these figures are they factored into what the numbers are, and how much are those costs? Can you tell us that information in these yearly costs, please?

Liberal

Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

I would say first that obviously our obligations to Mali, as announced yesterday, are not nearly what we did for Afghanistan.

Having said that, we have to be prepared. I would just remind members that our obligations to our veterans are statutory obligations, so we will come back at some point—

Conservative

Robert Gordon Kitchen Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

What are the numbers, Minister? What are the factors that are different in these grants per person per year? You're asking for pensions and benefits of $1.2 billion. How much of that are you anticipating to be paid out for our veterans who are being committed to Mali?

Liberal

Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

Mr. Kitchen, I would just say we will be ready for those who—

Conservative

Robert Gordon Kitchen Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

How much are those numbers? Do you know those numbers? Did you ask for those numbers? If not, why not?

Liberal

Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

I don't have those numbers handy, but we—

Conservative

Robert Gordon Kitchen Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

Can you get us that information?

Liberal

Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

—will be ready for those who come back.

Conservative

Robert Gordon Kitchen Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

Can you get us that information, please?

Liberal

Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

We will be ready for those who come back.

Conservative

Robert Gordon Kitchen Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

Can you get us that information?

Liberal

Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

I don't see any reason why we can't.

Conservative

Robert Gordon Kitchen Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

Okay.

Let's move on to another aspect within this budget. I'm wondering if you can give us numbers. You're not giving me any numbers on anything else, but perhaps you can give us numbers on the education and training benefit.

You're basically saying that $4.9 million is being projected for that. You've said to us today at committee that this is a grant. A grant means money up front. Assuming your numbers are correct and it's a grant of $80,000 per service member for 12 years, if you do the simple math, that amounts to 61 people who are going to get this benefit. Are those numbers correct?

Gen (Ret'd) Walter Natynczyk

Sir, the costing that we go through is with the Department of Finance. This also goes to your previous question. We rely on the actuaries. The actuaries in the office of the chief actuary do the costings for us based upon the best information they have at the time and the projections across the board. In addition, as the Minister indicated, whenever this comes into legislation and is approved, it becomes a statutory obligation. Basically it depends upon the uptake from veterans, whether they be drawing on the education benefit or indeed for injuries.

That's why in being able to come back on a cyclical basis through the supplementary estimates, using the quasi-statutory approach that we have with Treasury Board, we're able to revisit and get adjustments as required throughout the financial year.

Conservative

Robert Gordon Kitchen Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

How many people do you expect will utilize—

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Neil Ellis

Sorry, but we're out of time for now.

Mr. Johns, three minutes.

NDP

Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, in the campaign—and this has to do with the meeting today—there was a promise that the government was going to go to 25:1, caseworker to clients. That was a promise that was made. It was sold to veterans, to employees. It was mentioned several times last year in the budget, but it's not mentioned once this year.

I'm wondering if you have decided to abandon that pledge. Right now it's my understanding that we're around 38:1 or 39:1. We're very grateful that you're reopened offices, but in some cases we're hearing it's 60:1 or 65:1.

I mean, when you have this amount, and I'm back to this $42.8 million.... Again, it's our understanding that you needed double that to get to this place where we need to get to. I don't understand why we're not hiring back the staff that we need from 2012.

Can you maybe explain if you have abandoned that promise?

I don't know, Mr. Eyolfson, if it's something that could be tested in a court of law. It's a simple question around a promise. Can you answer that, because that's important?

Gen (Ret'd) Walter Natynczyk

My understanding is that we are still working hard to achieve 25:1. We owe that to veterans. We owe that to our employees.

The Minister and I were in Edmonton, and I had an opportunity to talk to our staff out there. We have some case managers who are in the upper thirties, and some who are in the lower twenties.

What is terrific is that we're able to get quality social workers, psychologists, and so on, who have case management experience. I met with a whole bunch of them, put them through a boot camp, and then slowly increased their caseload in order to take cases from those who have been around for a while. When we asked for additional folks a few years ago, we had an expectation of below about 10,000 folks who would be case managed. For a whole host of reasons, we're north of 12,000 case-managed veterans.

We're out there on an active basis trying to hire the right folks, put them through a boot camp, get into the offices, and then cross-level workloads, and this is ongoing. This is tough work. Case management in this kind of business—many of you have worked in communities—is tough work. Getting the right kind of people with the right kind of skills is absolutely essential, and then retaining them.

Liberal

Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

I would add too with regard to my comment earlier and my opening comments about a push mentality, word has gotten out, so we see a much increased demand on our services. We're hoping that the $42 million will help us in some way to keep up.

I'm happy for the demand, in a way, because people are calling because they need these services, and it's our obligation to provide them. We have a challenge—you've identified a significant challenge—and that is to keep up to make sure we can provide the services.

NDP

Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC

Minister, would the government be able to come back and tell us what is needed to get us to 25:1? What is needed to get the backlog to zero, not just for the next two years but permanently, so this never happens again?

Would the Minister be able to come back with those numbers so we know what we need to do? It's the right thing to do that proper analysis and come back, so we can talk about how we're going to get there.

Liberal

Seamus O'Regan Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

Mr. Johns, I have a strong suspicion that those numbers are more elusive than we think. All I can tell you is that we were bound and determined to bring it to zero.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Neil Ellis

Thank you. That ends today's time for testimony. I would like to thank both of you for appearing today.

General Natynczyk, again, we have a long history and I would like to thank you. I hired a veteran in my office who worked and trained under you. I find that veterans like to speak of veterans. Veterans who come into my office and see a vet sometimes end up walking the same road, and they enjoy that. Thank you for that training.

I suggest that all of us, as MPs, look at vets for our constituency offices and get them back to work.

We'll recess for about five minutes and then we'll come back. Thank you again.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Neil Ellis

I'd like to call the meeting back to order.

To slip to our second part, the Department of Veterans Affairs witnesses, we have Mr. Butler, assistant deputy minister, strategic policy and commemoration; Mr. Doiron, assistant deputy minister, service delivery; and Ms. Stuart, assistant deputy minister and chief financial officer, corporate services.

You don't have any testimony, so we'll start with questioning.

We'll start with the six-minute rounds with Mr. McColeman.

Conservative

Phil McColeman Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Should we not have testimony?

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Neil Ellis

Sometimes we don't.

If you want to make an opening statement...

Michel Doiron Assistant Deputy Minister, Service Delivery, Department of Veterans Affairs

We have no opening statement, so we'll turn right into questions.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Neil Ellis

“Just happy to be here” is your opening statement today, right?

Voices

Oh, oh!

Conservative

Phil McColeman Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Okay, great. Well let's get at it.

Thanks for being here.

My first lead-in is referring to testimony from a meeting we had with your director of field operations, Mr. Cormier. Is he under your supervision, sir?