Veterans Affairs Committee on June 7th, 2018

[Michel Doiron]

How do I get it away from growing? At the moment, I'm treading water. From week to week, I'm staying at about the same number.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

You're not properly resourced. That's clear.

On the political side, the government is making announcements and commitments. They're not properly resourcing you and the department, and then veterans are being given these false promises. We know what happens when veterans are promised something and they don't get it. They fall through the cracks, and they get disappointed.

We're trying to help you, actually. This is what we're facing here. We want to know what the plan is. What do you need? What does the department need so that veterans aren't falling through the cracks and government can start following through with core service delivery instead of making more promises?

[Michel Doiron]

You will understand if I do not comment on the political side of the question.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Sure.

[Michel Doiron]

As a bureaucrat, I'll stay away from that part.

You are correct in the sense that we have to get these files out faster. On the case management side, in the field, we're not at 25:1, but at a national level we are running at approximately 33. With the additional money, this will bring us, if not to the 25:1, to below the 30:1 into a comfortable zone.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

If we were at staffing levels going back to 2012, would we be at 25:1?

[Michel Doiron]

No, we would not.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Okay. We need more than that: we're so far off the mark in terms of resourcing the department with the adequate amount of staff to meet veterans' needs for the core service delivery, never mind all of these new programs that have been announced. Would that be accurate?

[Michel Doiron]

I think that with the additional 460 staff, and the addition of the new funds, we're going to be close, but I think what we have to do is add automation. That is something we're now working on with the government—

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I appreciate that.

Mr. Michel Doiron—in order to bring in the automation, because we can't continue doing the stuff the same way with these numbers. Now we have to maximize the use of artificial intelligence and better systems. We've done it with the new programs, so we have to—

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I think we agree on the innovation. It's a way to go, too, but we also need to make sure you're adequately resourced.

It's the same argument about service delivery for PTSD. Innovation alone isn't going to do it. Veterans are asking for in-patient care facilities specific to their needs. They will travel from Halifax to Saskatoon if a facility is there. They're asking for this, wherever it is. They're willing to travel. They need these facilities. This is something that was promised to them, and they need it. I know that the minister has his argument that it's going to be fine in the types of ways that you're going to do outreach to veterans, but clearly some of those veterans are falling through the cracks. They need facilities.

In terms of the caregiver recognition benefit, we're hearing a lot of complaints and concerns that many of the caregivers are getting rejected, especially those who have spouses suffering from PTSD. Can you explain why that's happening?

[Michel Doiron]

Thank you for the question.

I think I'll clarify. On the numbers we've received to date on the caregiver relief program, not a lot have been rejected. I just want to be clear on that—

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I have one last question on the—

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

You're out of time. I'm sorry.

Mr. Bratina.

[Bob Bratina, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you.

Could we look at it year to year? We keep hearing about the backlog, which has been increasing because there's more awareness and there are more programs. How many are we actually serving? What's that number?

[Michel Doiron]

Our number of clients is going up. The number of claims coming in for services is going up, and we have been doing the numbers year to year. As an example, we've seen from last year to this year close to a 22% increase in incoming first applications, which is where the biggest part of the backlog is. That's somebody who has never come to the department and who is now showing up for help. That's not everything. If I add everything in the lump, the increase is 32% in the adjudication area.

We've done a lot of analysis in trying to get to where the issue is. Right now we're targeting first applications because that's my biggest increase. It's 7% in departmental reviews, and various other numbers increase, but at 22%.... I do want to be clear that we have increased production by 25%.

[Bob Bratina, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

That's what I'm getting at, yes.

[Michel Doiron]

But the reality is that the incoming applications are out-pacing production.

Now we're into working with my colleagues in policy and in finance to determine whether there are other ways we can tackle this to make it easier for the veteran, to simplify and accelerate the process. There are some systemic issues related to this when you talk about the backlog.

As an example, it takes us on average close to three months—I'll be careful with the number of days—to receive files from the Canadian Armed Forces, and that's 25% of my workload. I'm not faulting my colleagues or my partners because they actually have to go and get the files from the bases and get them to us, and I have four months in total to process a file and the medical records, that means I now I have one month left to process. The four months to process this, to make sure that we have all the information, falls to one month.

With the Canadian Armed Forces, we're looking at ways to accelerate the electronic file, the medical file. Are there things we can stop asking for to actually accelerate it? If I don't need the file, let's not ask for the file, which means I just saved three months.

That's what I mean when I say we have to get beyond just asking for resources. I'm a public servant, and I'm here to serve the government—all governments—and Canadians. At the end of the day, that's what I do. I serve Canadians. Okay, we have money. We have amounts. How do I now get to meeting program obligations within what the Government of Canada has decided to give us? That means looking at removing the bureaucratic barriers, the 40-page forms that doctors don't like to fill out, and there are some forms.

The psych form went from 16 pages down to six. Now you would say that it's still too much, and my deputy is challenging me to get it to one page, but we actually need a diagnosis, and we need information because it is a disability program. It's not as if you can just show up and we're going to give you money; there are criteria in the law, and this committee is very well versed on that because you've worked on it.

We are working at the other matters, not just adding people. To your point, yes, adding people is important, but how do we get to the processes and eliminate and become way more lean, not necessarily the lean methodology but leaner in our processes.

[Bob Bratina, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Going back to my municipal days, when we got an agency budget, the most fascinating line was always “other”. In transfer payments to persons you have “other”, $29,406,000. What would be the other uses or the expenditures on that file, on that line item?

[RAdm Elizabeth Stuart]

I'm sorry, what page are you on, please?

[Bob Bratina, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

You have transfers to persons, pensions and benefits, disability awards, veterans independence program, earnings loss benefit, and other transfers to persons.

[RAdm Elizabeth Stuart]

Oh, there is a plethora of transfers, grants, and contributions to persons. I have an entire list. I will be happy to provide it.

[Bob Bratina, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Okay. It's just for my curiosity.

[RAdm Elizabeth Stuart]

It will be my pleasure.

[Bob Bratina, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

On personnel costs—$236,623,904—how many personnel is that divided by?