Evidence of meeting #92 for Veterans Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was help.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Randi Gage  Chair, Unified Veterans of Manitoba
Brian Black  Chair and Vice-President, Métis Nation of Ontario
Shelly Claus  Women’s Representative, Métis Nation of Ontario
Victor Sanderson  As an Individual
Lissa Smith  Vice-President and Minister for Veterans, Métis Nation British Columbia
Tanya Davoren  Director of Health and Sport, Director of Veterans, Métis Nation British Columbia

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Neil Ellis

We'll get to that later. Thank you.

Mr. Fraser, you have five minutes.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you all very much for joining us. I appreciated the presentations.

I want to start with you, Ms. Gage. You talked about non-approved support services. Some of those were helpful to you in transitioning to civilian life. You mentioned powwows and sweat lodges. So far in this study we've heard about some of that work that goes on with indigenous veterans and how helpful it can be.

First, just so we're clear, what do you mean by “non-approved”? Also, what do you think could be done to better help build those partnerships?

11:30 a.m.

Chair, Unified Veterans of Manitoba

Randi Gage

You came to me with a loaded question there.

“Non-approved” means that, from what I have experienced with the people I work with who have PTSD—and that's another topic too, PTSD and vicarious trauma; those things need to be dealt with. Those people can't decide to go to an aboriginal elder and have any type of financial support, shall we say, to be able to go from point A to point B to see this individual. I'll give you an example.

It's a husband and wife; both served in Afghanistan; both served numerous tours; both are retired from the Canadian Forces. Both of them suffer from PTSD. They both went to 17 Wing because in Winnipeg, that's where veterans have to go to get examined or whatever.

They were directed to go and see “approved” individuals. They went to Deer Lodge Centre for a sharing circle or support circle or whatever they're calling their things. When they went in, first of all, they were met by—and I do apologize; I am not racist to anyone; just understand where I'm coming from with this—a gentleman wearing a turban. Number one, that was traumatic, because they had been in Afghanistan, and who had been in their sights but people wearing turbans? Second, when they sat down in the circle to start discussing, she was asked to leave because this was for men with PTSD—not for soldiers with PTSD, but men. She was asked to sit out in the hall while her husband, whom she had served with side by side, was able to take part in this circle. The men didn't want her hearing what they had experienced.

Excuse me? A month ago, she was shooting the same gun that they had. This is very real: the women are not allowed into these circles, and if they are, people hold back.

She wanted to go to, well, me. You can't tell by my blond hair, but I am old. I'm 70 years old, so I've been down the road a bit. I do understand things, I am traditional and I do know my traditions and culture. She wanted to come to me, but that's a two-hour drive from where she's at, and all she asked for was a little gas money to go back and forth. She was told no, because I am not a sanctioned, authorized person; I do not have a piece of paper from the University of Guelph or wherever, so she couldn't come to me.

That has to stop.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS

Thank you very much for that.

Mr. Black, in the limited time I have left, I wanted to touch on what you had mentioned about the need for building better partnerships. You talked about partnerships between Veterans Affairs, possibly, and your veterans council or the Legion, and I think you had mentioned a couple of other organizations that are really important because those are the resources that we have on the ground, and their coverage is much better than any government department could ever be.

Can you talk a little bit about how that partnership could be fostered and what recommendation you would make to keep those things going with, perhaps, government support?

11:35 a.m.

Chair and Vice-President, Métis Nation of Ontario

Brian Black

Just as you said, they're basically on the front lines. For example, last week VETS Canada was here in Ottawa doing a homeless search, looking for homeless vets, but I got notice of that on Friday. If there was some sort of way that Veterans Affairs could put on their website—for lack of a better word—an events page—

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS

Just on that, who gave you the notice for that?

11:35 a.m.

Chair and Vice-President, Métis Nation of Ontario

Brian Black

I saw it on Facebook.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS

Okay.

11:35 a.m.

Chair and Vice-President, Métis Nation of Ontario

Brian Black

That way, there could be some notice, and then maybe people could come out to help.

It's the same thing when Veterans Affairs is having some activity. We don't find out until the day after it happened, or people say, “Oh, yes, I was there, and it was great.” We don't get advance notice that it's coming. That level of communication, that pre-notice, is the biggest gap that I would see.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Neil Ellis

Thank you.

Mr. Johns is next.

June 14th, 2018 / 11:35 a.m.

NDP

Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC

Thank you for your testimony and for being here and, most importantly, for your service.

If you could continue talking about the partnerships, Mr. Black, that would be great. What are the kinds of services that you think you could help deliver on behalf of veterans, being properly resourced from VAC?

11:35 a.m.

Chair and Vice-President, Métis Nation of Ontario

Brian Black

With our personal counsel and for what we do, we don't have the infrastructure to do some of the other jobs that some of these associations do, so we piggyback with them. When they have something, we bring our resources to support and help them out to do what they're going to do. If we knew ahead of time that VETS Canada was going to do a homeless search on the streets of Ottawa, we would contact all our local vets and tell them this is happening and ask if anybody could come out to help.

Again, it goes to communication. It's one of the biggest problems, and you could probably find that hole in just about the whole system. A better line of communication needs to come out. They're using social media a lot better than they used to, and they're communicating a little better, but their outreach still needs to be a little better.

We've been trying to get an outreach with Veterans Affairs on what their commemorative events are coming up. It's taken us a couple of years to finally start to get those notices, but it's like pulling teeth just to find that communication that they're freely giving, that they want to give us, but we don't know who to get it from.

11:35 a.m.

NDP

Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC

On that thread, you've talked about face-to-face, veteran-to-veteran communication being the most important.

11:40 a.m.

Chair and Vice-President, Métis Nation of Ontario

11:40 a.m.

NDP

Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC

In the United States, I think they have a threshold that 30% of their caseworkers have to be veterans, and I am sure that's not reflected here in Canada, veterans as caseworkers serving veterans. Would that be something you would like to see—the percentage of aboriginal, first nation, Métis, and Inuit veterans who are serving being reflected in VAC caseworkers?

Ms. Gage, I think you talked about being culturally appropriate in that support, that understanding. Would that be something you'd like to see more of?

11:40 a.m.

Chair and Vice-President, Métis Nation of Ontario

Brian Black

Definitely. As I said, there's that stigma out there that veterans aren't going to ask for help. When I am personally in front of one of my comrades and talking to him, I'm going to see in his face that there's something wrong, and then maybe I'll add some other conversation to try to draw him out and see what it is. Depending on who he is, I can say that he needs to go talk to somebody, and he might say maybe or maybe not. No, he needs to go. We can talk directly to that sensitivity level of what we can do to look after our vets. We can support them through it. If they want me to go with them, I'll go with them.

When you get into that level, you need to search out that person who needs that help, and they're not sitting there. Personally, I would go to a Veterans Affairs town hall and sit in the back. I'd walk in, sit in the back, and I'd listen to that and I'd say, “Yes, well, nothing has really changed and nothing is really going to help me”, and then I'd walk out the back door.

11:40 a.m.

Chair, Unified Veterans of Manitoba

Randi Gage

Exactly.

11:40 a.m.

Chair and Vice-President, Métis Nation of Ontario

Brian Black

That discouragement is there unless somebody is there to pull that into them.

11:40 a.m.

NDP

Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC

Ms. Gage, maybe I'll ask you to comment a bit too. You talked about people who aren't sanctioned or authorized, but they are, really. They are culturally sensitive and understanding. Maybe you could speak a little about the need and what VAC can do in terms of making sure we have those resources in place.

11:40 a.m.

Chair, Unified Veterans of Manitoba

Randi Gage

Well, it's just like the little example I gave you about a woman having her period. That, in mainstream society, is nothing. You know it happens, okay, so you go buy your.... But within our culture, it's a big deal, and being able to communicate with a female veteran who can say, “Yes, okay; now, this is how we deal with it....”

It's important to have things that are culturally appropriate, to have a knowledge of tradition that is not out of a book—because you can't get it out of a book—and have a person or a group of people who can talk to the veteran, be they female or male, who understands the little innuendos or the...idiosyncrasies, I guess, of things. Understand that you took me from being an aboriginal woman who was going to get married, have kids, be a grandma, and yada, yada, yada, and put a gun in my hand to become a killer, even though I was trained to shoot a gun from the time I was three or four years old, but that was for survival to eat, not to take him out, the child of another woman, and understand that when you say that to—excuse me, world—a mainstream, book-trained psychologist, psychiatrist, or whatever, you become a narcissistic person.

11:40 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Neil Ellis

Thank you.

Ms. Lambropoulos is next.

11:40 a.m.

Liberal

Emmanuella Lambropoulos Liberal Saint-Laurent, QC

Thank you for being here with us to share your experiences and to help us improve the way things are done.

Mr. Black, you said that a previous witness—I believe it was a previous witness, because I've heard it before—had mentioned that he considers himself Métis in all walks of life, except at VAC. I was wondering if you could speak a bit more as to why that is. What is the distinction there? Why would being a Métis be a disadvantage for him?

11:40 a.m.

Chair and Vice-President, Métis Nation of Ontario

Brian Black

I'm not sure. He didn't really elaborate on that. What I got from his testimony when I was listening to it was that because of his service, he wasn't taking care of himself. He wanted to take care of others. This was just a statement he made. I didn't hear if he elaborated on the specifics, but he did say there were issues within VAC that stopped him and that he got rid of the issues once he said or implied that he wasn't Métis.

11:40 a.m.

Liberal

Emmanuella Lambropoulos Liberal Saint-Laurent, QC

Do you know others who have experienced similar issues?

11:40 a.m.

Chair and Vice-President, Métis Nation of Ontario

Brian Black

Not in recent years, no.