Evidence of meeting #92 for Veterans Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was help.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Randi Gage  Chair, Unified Veterans of Manitoba
Brian Black  Chair and Vice-President, Métis Nation of Ontario
Shelly Claus  Women’s Representative, Métis Nation of Ontario
Victor Sanderson  As an Individual
Lissa Smith  Vice-President and Minister for Veterans, Métis Nation British Columbia
Tanya Davoren  Director of Health and Sport, Director of Veterans, Métis Nation British Columbia

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Neil Ellis

I call to order meeting 92 of the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), this is the study of needs and issues specific to indigenous veterans. This is the last meeting of the session, so I guess I'll now warn everybody that we won't be here next week. We will get things wrapped up today and hopefully have a great holiday or great work in our riding.

In this first panel we welcome, from the Métis Nation of Ontario Veterans Council, Brian Black, chair and vice-president, and Shelly Claus, women's representative. Good morning.

From the Unified Veterans of Manitoba, we have Randi Gage, chair. Ms. Gage is a Vietnam-era veteran who was an armour supply specialist in the United States Army. Ms. Gage has been a constant advocate for the rights and health of aboriginal veterans and all veterans, in an effort to ensure they receive the supports they deserve. In the 1990s, she worked tirelessly to designate a special day of recognition for aboriginal veterans. On November 8, 1993, the first Aboriginal Veterans Day took place across Canada. In 1994, the day was officially recognized by the Government of Manitoba.

We will start this morning with 10 minutes from each of our guests. Then we will go into questioning.

We will start with Ms. Gage.

11:05 a.m.

Randi Gage Chair, Unified Veterans of Manitoba

Thank you. You took away all the things I had to say. Somebody did their research.

11:05 a.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

11:05 a.m.

Chair, Unified Veterans of Manitoba

Randi Gage

I have to warn you in advance that I'm a crier, so that's a lesson to begin with.

[Witness speaks in Ojibwa]

Does everybody know what I just told you?

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

Bob Bratina Liberal Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

You said, “Good morning”—

11:05 a.m.

Chair, Unified Veterans of Manitoba

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

Bob Bratina Liberal Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

—and that you're glad to be here.

11:05 a.m.

Chair, Unified Veterans of Manitoba

Randi Gage

No.

Can anyone translate or interpret what I just said?

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

Bob Bratina Liberal Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

Say it again.

11:05 a.m.

Chair, Unified Veterans of Manitoba

Randi Gage

And again and again. I will do that in a second.

This is an example of one of the huge issues that aboriginal and Métis veterans have faced from day one. I just told you who I am, what my family's position within my community is—was, I don't know what it is today—what my job is seen to be, and where I come from. That was in 11 words or less.

What I said was, “Hello, greetings, good morning”—however you want to do it. Some people say that's really lousy French, but it's not; it's Ojibwa. My name is Eagle Woman. I am of the Loon Clan. I am a warrior woman. My clan is the speaker clan for the people. We have two clans, the White Crane Clan and the Loon Clan, which are the two political clans, so to speak. White Crane are you guys. You're the White Cranes. You go out there and do all the fluffing and folding and all that. The Loon Clan are the speakers for the people. They come and say, “He won't listen to me.” Then I go and say, “Now listen here.”

That is the start of the problems and confusion that have always faced our people.

Now I'm not going to tell you the usual stories that I'm sure you've heard a million times. For those in French, I apologize, but my French is limited to oui and “escargot”, and none of those end up in this.

I will read you a little bit of a statement that I want to say to you.

It's the paradox of being a female aboriginal soldier—a huge paradox—and the things that are challenging to a woman going into the military. As aboriginal children, we're free to learn from our mother the Earth and the things that she provides for us. Sure, we're guided to the dangers and things that go on out there that are going to hurt us, but overall we run free—at least I did. I was kind of a wild child.

The rules and regulations that we had were very few. If somebody said your proper name, it was “oh”, and if they snapped their fingers, you stopped immediately. If they said, “drop”, you dropped immediately. You didn't ask; you got down. You knew you were safe. You would say, “Dad, what was that about?” You didn't ask before. You listened. You had rules.

As an aboriginal female, we were taught from a young age about our bodies and what to do with them and what not to do with them. It was not like today. We were taught what it was for and what was expected of us to do. We were respected for the gift that the Creator gave us, to be like our mother the Earth and to bring life. We were seen as gentle and strong creatures, and the protectors of life. We learned how precious our monthly—although annoying—visitor was, as it was the reason that we were here, to bring new life into the world. See? I told you. I'm a crier.

For me, deciding to become a soldier was easy, because I had always wanted to follow in my dad's footsteps. My plan, like all of us, was to graduate from high school, get a degree in nursing, join the army, and become jump qualified to become a flying nurse. Well, it didn't quite work out that way. I graduated. I went into nursing and was at the point where we selected our specialties. I had one that I wanted. I didn't get it, because the instructor's niece was in the class and she got it. I got mad and I walked out.

I went across the street to the Marine recruiter, but he was rude, so I left. I went to the air force and didn't like the uniforms. I ended up at the army recruiter, who just happened to be giving the entrance exam at that time, so I took the entrance exam. I passed it, missing one question. To this day, it bugs me that I missed that question. I knew the answer, but I gave the civilian definition.

Two weeks later, I was leaving my safe little community in northern Michigan to go to Detroit city. I was a little country bumpkin girl going to the big city of Detroit, where I remember walking across town, down back alleys, at 3 a.m. to the hotel. Yes, I was not the brightest bulb back then.

As I got into all of this—and really, before even entering into the service—I knew that there were rules and regulations, commands, and so on, but I didn't anticipate the abuse. Never did I anticipate the abuse.

I had long, dark hair that was cut off, because only Hawaiian natives could have their long hair. We poor Ojibwas were shorn like sheep. I have a picture to prove it. We were poked with needles, we were prodded. The abusive yelling in our faces was just unbelievable. Instead of giving a command, they.... You got spittle all over yourself. And the starched uniforms.... As kids we didn't wear clothes—shoes, maybe, but clothes were optional. Then you go into these uniforms, and they had to be such and they had to be so, and you had to have your bed made with no wrinkles—flip a quarter and make it pop.

This was all strange. I know, although not having experienced the Canadian Forces, that it's pretty much the same. There are rules and regulations and guys screaming. I believe they're called master sergeants. They just really like to scream at you. It's a very foreign world for an aboriginal person when you go into this all of a sudden.

During basic training and advanced training, you're taught what your job will be. Everyone is trained to shoot and to stab. For six, eight, 10, 12 weeks, your civilian self is removed and your military self is born. You have to learn a new language. You have to learn a walk. You have to learn to yield to the demands and the commands. You learn to sleep standing up, which I have done many times. You learn just how many potatoes are in a 45-kilogram bag, which I've seen many times.

You learn how to follow the most unreasonable of orders and you develop a thick callus on your tongue from biting it to keep from asking why or telling an officer just how wrong they are. The happy, innocent, carefree civilian who joined with the dreams of glory is replaced with a hardened military attitude of survival, with no glimmer of glory. You forget who you were and what your dreams had been, because you have now been brainwashed and have become a well-trained military killing machine.

Remember, in my civilian life I was an aboriginal woman who was raised to be a giver of life. I am now a killer of life, and I am expected to do this duty unflinchingly when I am told to pull that trigger.

I have to say that over the years, there are many wonderful things that you experience, as well as the truly heart-wrenching things that you must do or witness. It isn't all bad. You learn to accept the bad things and move on in your military self. By now, you have disconnected with the civilian female you were those 18 years before you entered basic. You can take a gun apart and reassemble it in the allotted time. I could drive just about anything they threw me in, except a tank—I never did figure those things out.

You learn to deal with your female visitor, surrounded by a group of men. You are afforded no privacy at that time, as you are a soldier, not a woman. You are made the brunt of jokes, and sometimes not even given a private place to make the needed item change. I sit here today in front of you and I say that this is still happening to today's Canadian Forces soldiers. I have been told time and time again by women who have come back.

When it's discharge time, there are no six, eight, 10, or 12 weeks to debrief and put back on your civilian self. It's a discharge: “Bye, see you later.” You are given a ticket home, a few dollars, and a handshake. Nope, nothing. “Good luck. Bye. Call if you need us.”

But you know what? You forget to give us a phone number that works. We're shown the gate and left to assess what life has for us, and more importantly, what life doesn't have for us.

Sure, you're excited to leave the chaos and you think things will be the same as when you left, but they aren't. The world isn't and you aren't, so you go into a type of shock, and that takes a few weeks or even years to come out of.

Support is hard to find, if it exists; and if it does, it is not culturally appropriate—and I emphasize that—whether you are first nation, Métis, or Inuit, or even close to anything traditional in scope. Those of the group who are standing in front of you or sitting in a chair next to you are book-taught, and even worse, their very appearance causes trauma. Ask me about that afterwards.

For those who served in World War I, World War II, Korea, and Vietnam, there was little or no support. Being an aboriginal soldier, there was even less, and for aboriginal female soldiers, there was even less than that. Many tried to drown the dogs of war in booze; some chose drugs, and some did their best to try to act normal in what was a non-normal world. Today's aboriginal soldiers face many of these same issues, because there are no culturally appropriate government-approved support services to be found.

You see, in your infinite wisdom of governing, you refuse to allow anyone who does not have a piece of paper from one of your recognized institutions to do support work. Anyone who is out there to help the soldiers must meet your standards, even if they have no idea what they are talking about when it comes to aboriginal spirituality and tradition, be it first nation, Métis, or Inuit.

How did I leave the dogs behind? To tell you the truth, I haven't totally. I've trained them. I tell them to go away and leave me alone. However, I did go to a lot of non-approved support that knew and respected my culture and traditions. I drove hundreds of miles to powwows, sweat lodges, and ceremonies until I could see myself once again as a civilian and not dive for cover at July 1 fireworks or the slamming of a door. I worked hard and took hold of my life, which is now nearing the twilight years, but don't let that fool you: there is a lot of fight left.

I hope that this small look through the eyes of a female aboriginal soldier will open your eyes and your minds to the unique needs of not only the aboriginal soldier, but to the very unique needs and issues of female soldiers, female aboriginal soldiers in particular.

Now this is where I'm going to cry. Thank you.

In closing, seeing that this current government is advocating reconciliation with aboriginal peoples, I would ask that this year they officially recognize November 8 as Aboriginal Veterans Day.

This year in Winnipeg, the only city in Canada to officially recognize November 8 as Aboriginal Veterans Day, we will have a 25th anniversary celebration. Next year, the province of Manitoba, the only province in Canada to recognize November 8 as Aboriginal Veterans Day, will celebrate the 25th anniversary.

Two years ago, Veterans Affairs Canada recognized November 8 as Aboriginal Veterans Day by publishing it on their website. Isn't it time for the full Canadian government to officially recognize this day?

Thank you.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Neil Ellis

Thank you.

Please go ahead, Mr. Black.

11:15 a.m.

Brian Black Chair and Vice-President, Métis Nation of Ontario

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Honourable members, guests, and friends, it's a great honour to be here before you to discuss Métis veterans and their issues.

Métis peoples have been fighting battles for Canada since the War of 1812, and then again in World War I, World War II, Korea, Vietnam, Bosnia, the Persian Gulf, and Afghanistan.

I've been watching and listening to your committee meetings on this study on indigenous veterans, and I'm going to try not to repeat some of the things that have already been stated, so bear with me if I do.

June has seen a bunch of armed forces appreciation days. June 21 is national aboriginal day. June is PTSD awareness month. The relevance of this study in this month is not lost on us. We welcome the opportunity to express our feelings and take your questions.

I am the chairperson for the Métis Nation of Ontario Veterans' Council. I served in the Canadian Armed Forces in the 1990s. I participated in the first Gulf War, and again as a UN peacekeeper during the Haiti conflict. Not only did I take the oath to serve my country, but twice I put my life on the line in these official conflicts. I say this not for thanks or admiration, but for your understanding that I speak from experience and first-hand knowledge.

Our Métis veterans' council has six members. We're spread throughout the province, from Windsor to Trenton, from Toronto up to north of Midland. You can understand that sometimes just getting our council together is pretty tough.

The challenges that the Métis Nation of Ontario Veterans' Council faces are many. Ontario is a very big province, and our veterans are scattered throughout it. The obvious first problem is geography. Technology is great and it gets us connected, but there are veterans who don't want technology, and they live up in remote areas.

Being Métis, our peoples do not have reserves to live on, so there is generally no gathering place readily available for our veterans. We do have community offices throughout the province, but their limited funds are for outreach or to help our veterans as needed in those communities.

Last year our council did some fundraising, and we brought veterans and our youth to Ottawa for the 100th anniversary of Vimy Ridge. Our youth were brought as young eyes to see experiences through the veterans' eyes. Each youth was tasked to talk to the veterans throughout the weekend and write a journal of their experience. Their journal entries are going to be placed into our second book, which is coming out in the near future. I have given each of you in the committee a copy of our first book. I'm sorry that there is no French translation for it.

Last summer, our Métis youth council asked our veterans' council to participate in facilitating leadership workshops at their national youth meeting. Our youth are important to us; we see them as being very valuable. They see our importance to them in their journey also.

Last year we heard that there was going to be a reconciliation for Métis World War II veterans. I'll ask what is going on with that. We heard this announcement, and then we heard nothing—crickets. Our World War II veterans are not getting any younger. What are we waiting for?

I understand there may have been some talks with Veterans Affairs and our Métis National Council, but nothing from this has been translated down to the Métis provincial council, veteran councils, or committees. This matter needs a second engagement and discussion with the provincial Métis veteran councils and committees—not the national council, which does not know all the needs of our veterans.

This past winter I attended a milestone birthday for one of our World War II veterans here in Ontario. He turned 105 years old, god bless his heart.

I want to give you some information that will help you identify with veteran issues. Some of these are not solely Métis issues, but they are systemic for veterans across the spectrum.

When a citizen takes his oath to serve this great country of ours, most believe that there is no expiry date on that oath. From the point of taking that oath, you're embedded with others. In basic training you are put to do many tasks at the same time. You are trained to change your mind into thinking that you can't do it all yourself. You have to rely on your comrades to pull together for better results and successes. You line up for meals together, take courses together, shower together, clean the floors together.

There's no personal space. You're always with somebody else. After basic training, this is relaxed a little bit, but the theories are all still the same. There's always support and someone there with you.

After the years of living like this, when a person takes his or her release, then they're alone. This is where the mind can get idle, and good things do not come of that. I by no means am an expert on PTSD, depression, or any other intellectual handicap, but what I do know is if one of my comrades was hurting and I could get to them, I could listen to them, I could support them, I could flesh it out and help them get the support that they need. Being alone is a recipe for disaster.

When we Métis come home, we not only come home alone, we're also secluded and alone. There are communities out there that can help most of the veterans, but most veterans won't open up to non-veterans who cannot relate or speak to their experiences. Veteran-to-veteran intervention is the best way to help these situations.

There is a stigma out there that causes us not to ask for help, so veterans who need the help need to be searched out. They're not going to come to the door asking for help. There's not a single program that's going to help every single vet, and that's why there are so many great programs out there.

I'm going to say something that's going to surprise you: I think Veterans Affairs is doing a good job. I think they're doing a good job with the tools that they've been given. Can they do better? You better believe they should, but I understand that they cannot do everything for everyone. What needs to happen is better partnerships with groups like our veterans council, with the Royal Canadian Legion, the Dignified Veteran Assistance clinic, VETS Canada, AVA. These are all groups that work on the front lines looking after the vets. They're doing the work that Veterans Affairs is unable to do, with no support and very little funding, if any.

As I stated earlier, we took this oath with the belief that there's no expiry date. We serve until we can serve no more. Men and women—yes, don't forget the support and the contributions our fighting women have made in this service—write a blank cheque to serve our country, but when we get cut short and we're back home battling our inner and outward demons, we've been told that we're asking for too much. In plain military terms, that's “unsat”.

We acknowledge the changes that Veterans Affairs has made, that they're not sitting idle and that they're trying to make improvements, but they have a long way to go. Communication needs to improve. Technology is great, social media is great, but face-to-face, peer-to-peer contact is how it's going to happen.

A few weeks ago, you had Dr. Scott Sheffield and Mr. Lafontaine here in front of you. One of the things that really hit home with me that day was when Mr. Lafontaine said that he is full Métis everywhere in his life except with VAC. That should not still be happening.

In closing, I must clarify that I am not a Métis historian or a scholar. I am Métis. I am a Persian Gulf veteran. I'm a Canadian peacekeeping veteran. I work and care for my Métis veteran brothers and sisters.

Meegwetch.

June 14th, 2018 / 11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Neil Ellis

We're going to have to start with five-minute rounds, so we'll start with Ms. Wagantall.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you so much for being here today and for being forthright with us.

We had the opportunity as a committee to recently travel across Canada focusing specifically on listening to aboriginal, first nations, and Métis—not Inuit yet—to hear specifically about your concerns. There are things that are very specifically attached in this area that we need to address.

That said, a lot of what was expressed, and from what you say as well, Mr. Black, is symptomatic of being part of the armed forces. Then there are parts that are connected to the lack of care specifically for the Métis community. We were up in Beauval, Saskatchewan, in a Métis town. They had a lot of very good things to say that were very similar to what you said.

In regard to Aboriginal Veterans Day, November 8, we heard a different perspective. They valued it, but they want to be as valued on November 11. Can you speak to that a little bit, either of you, Ms. Gage or Mr. Black?

11:25 a.m.

Chair, Unified Veterans of Manitoba

Randi Gage

Seeing that I am the founder of that day, sure, I could speak to it.

If you went into your archives and found these documents, you would know about it. Back in 1992 we were gathered here on the Hill to establish the National Aboriginal Veterans Association—the good one, not the current one. One of the things that came out of that meeting with veterans from all across Canada was that they wanted a day when they could keep their history in their community. As veterans, we'll tell you that the one place we want to be on November 11 is with our comrades. Whether it's in Winnipeg or whether it's here at the cenotaph, we want to be with everybody.

We had this discussion, and June 21 came up. They said, “No, that's National Indigenous Peoples Day. We want our day.”

We went through a bunch of stuff. We looked at November 8 because of the number, 8. What they came up with was that it was a good time to be able to get their uniforms out and get them dry cleaned, to polish up everything that needed to be polished up, to get their feet working in the right direction as far as marching and remembering things was concerned, and to meet with their community—be within their community, save their history there, be with their children and grandchildren, share what was happening. They figured that gave them enough time to get all spruced up and ready to go wherever they had to go on November 11.

That is why that day was put into play. It has now gone all the way across. People don't understand it because nobody asked the question. I mean, the Legion went bonkers on it until I sat down and told them the reason. It's taking nothing away from November 11.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK

If I may, Ms. Gage, I think we're heading in a direction that I hadn't intended. It's not seen as a competition or not understanding the value of it. This was within the Métis community that we were hearing this.

11:30 a.m.

Chair, Unified Veterans of Manitoba

Randi Gage

Yes, I understand. That's what I'm saying.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK

Okay.

11:30 a.m.

Chair, Unified Veterans of Manitoba

Randi Gage

Developing this day was not to, in any way whatsoever, take anything away. It was to enhance the fact that our communities were losing what an aboriginal veteran was. They were losing their veterans. They're dying. They're gone.

I noticed in your invitation that you had no recognition of World War I: wrong. Ask me about that.

This was an enhancement so that they could keep that knowledge within their community and share it.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK

Wonderful. Thank you.

11:30 a.m.

Chair, Unified Veterans of Manitoba

Randi Gage

Do you have anything else?

11:30 a.m.

Chair and Vice-President, Métis Nation of Ontario

Brian Black

No. I think you hit the point right on.

We wanted a day to recognize our separate contributions. We also wanted to keep it separate from the November 11 ceremony, because we want to be with all our comrades. There are great stories out there from back in World War I and World War II. Indigenous people enlisted, and all of a sudden they had a good job and three meals. They were treated just like one of the normal people; they were contributing and everyone was working together. There was no separation. When they came home, that's when that disconnect happened. This is celebrating both.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK

I appreciate that. We did hear from associations across the country that it was important to celebrate in your communities and then to be available and be part of the celebrating on Remembrance Day as well. I just wanted that on the record today.

11:30 a.m.

Chair, Unified Veterans of Manitoba

Randi Gage

I have something here for you too.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK

Wonderful.