Veterans Affairs Committee on Oct. 20th, 2022

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Is the committee made up of the two of you or others, as well?

[Paul Ledwell]

We don't have a committee. The fact is that we would like to keep—

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

It's not a committee. It's an investigation. I see.

[Paul Ledwell]

We would like to keep a distance between those who conduct the investigation and take care of all the details, and those who receive the investigation.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Who is conducting the investigation in this case?

[Paul Ledwell]

The people who are responsible for that branch. So there is Mr. Harris, as the assistant deputy minister, and the director general, who is responsible for all of our interactions with veterans in that branch.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Desilets.

I now give the floor to Ms. Blaney for two and a half minutes.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you so much, Chair.

I think it's important that we acknowledge the fact that the department has removed this person from providing direct service. I think that's something we have to respect. There are a lot of things we have to consider, but making sure that the veteran is cared for is obviously a priority. I just want to honour that.

I'm coming back to you, Mr. Harris, through the chair, of course. I apologize for my confusion. I'm sure you will clear it up. I'm hearing things, and I just want to clarify. I think you said that this was not a call through the call centre. I think what I heard you say was that the veteran made the call directly to the service agent.

From my understanding, there isn't a way to do that. Is there a way to speak directly with a frontline worker, such as a service agent, without going through the call centre? The reason I ask this, of course, is that when you do call in, it's very clear that all conversations are recorded and can be looked at afterward. I think that's what I've heard when I've called in before.

I'm wondering if you could clear that up so that I better understand the process of how this connection was made.

[Steven Harris]

Sure. Thanks very much.

The short answer to the question is that calls into our national client contact centre are recorded. Calls between veterans and case managers or veterans service agents that take place through the normal access of someone calling in to ask questions of somebody who may be responsible for their file, such as in the case of a case-managed veteran or in the case of a veteran who may be going through guided support and has a veterans service agent associated with them, can be direct phone calls that can come in from that point of view. It's also true that the case managers or veterans service agents could call out to people they have a responsibility for in helping them through whatever level of support they might need, so you're right that there's a two-way flow of calls that could happen.

It could come from the department if somebody's calling out to see how their veteran is doing, but it also could come in from a veteran who has a direct contact, be it a case manager or veterans service agent, to follow up on some issues or questions they might have.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

You're saying that the veteran called in directly and had a direct line to someone. I'm just trying to make sure I got that clear.

[Steven Harris]

That is my understanding in this case.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you so much.

To clarify, service agents then have a direct number that they can give out. Is that what you're saying?

[Steven Harris]

Yes, that could happen in certain instances, depending on the support that's being advised. Veterans service agents provide guidance support to veterans, but they also undertake incoming calls from various areas when they may need to triage a call in from a veteran, a member of the general public or others as well. There are a variety of supports offered through our veterans service agents. Sometimes they are working directly with veterans or others.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Harris.

Now let's go to our first vice-chair, Blake Richards, for five minutes, please.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Thank you.

Let me pick up where Ms. Blaney left off about this call. To be honest, I'm still a little unclear. This is what I understood, and correct me if I'm wrong.

If a veteran calls in to the general number, then those calls are recorded. However, if the veteran calls a direct number of a caseworker, that's not recorded. If the caseworker makes an outgoing call, that's not recorded either. Only in the case where they've called a general number are the calls recorded. Nothing else is recorded. Is that what I understood?

[Steven Harris]

Perhaps I can take this. I'd actually like to offer a clarification. In this case, the veterans service agent had called the veteran. Let me correct my earlier comment to the member, when I said the veteran called in; in this specific case, the veterans service agent had called out to the veteran.

Further to your question, calls in to our client centre, our 1-800 contact centre, are recorded. Calls that take place on a regular basis between veterans and case managers or veterans service agents, calls that go back and forth, don't go through that and are not recorded.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

That seems odd to me, but we'll leave it there. It seems to me that for just about every call we make to any large organization these days is recorded, so it's odd to me that only a call to the general number would be recorded and none of the other interactions would be, but so be it. We won't get into that policy today.

What communication has there been with the veteran whose caseworker suggested medical assistance in dying? What communication has there been between Veterans Affairs and the veteran who had this suggested to him? Since that call with the worker and the terrible incident that occurred, what communication has there been with that veteran? How has that been undertaken?

[Steven Harris]

Again, perhaps I can speak to that a little bit.

The veteran had the initial call with the veterans service agent and was rightly upset. He contacted Veterans Affairs again to indicate that he had just had a troubling phone call with one of our veterans service agents. When that call came back into the department, it was escalated back to the local area office. Somebody who is in a managerial position called the veteran back, understanding that this was the issue and that it has been raised inappropriately. Somebody who was a senior manager in the position called the veteran back to speak with that individual about the concerns they had related to that phone call. That conversation has continued and had continued over several weeks following the initial incident.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Okay. I appreciate that clarification and understanding as well.

I want to go back, Mr. Ledwell, because I'm still a little unclear. In the first 45 minutes or so of the meeting, we seemed to be repeatedly hearing that there had been one incident. Then it seemed that all of a sudden, about an hour into the meeting, there was a bit of a shift in that. I'm a little unclear, and I need to understand which version is accurate. Maybe I misunderstood; I don't know, but I seemed to be hearing two different versions. All of a sudden there was an introduction that there had been actually a second individual who'd had discussions undertaken with a caseworker.

If I even understood that correctly, that individual actually had gone through with medical assistance in dying. Did I misunderstand that?

[Paul Ledwell]

I can't speak to that particular last aspect that you are raising, but we did ascertain, as part of this file review and investigation, that this veterans service agent had had a conversation with a veteran previously, a case in which the veteran raised the issue with the veterans service agent. It was in fact that conversation that was referenced in the second case, a conversation that led to the veterans service agent raising the issue unprompted to that veteran—

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Okay. Then the difference was that in one case, it was prompted by the veteran and there was a conversation around it, and in the other case, it was unprompted.

[Paul Ledwell]

Correct.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Okay, and it's possible—maybe you can't tell us, but it's possible—that there may be a veteran who has passed away or taken their life as a result of that conversation. You can't confirm that, but it's possible that this is the case. That's obviously concerning.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Excuse me, Mr. Richards. Maybe in the next round you'll be able to ask questions again.

Now I'd like to invite MP Darrell Samson, who is on Zoom, to go ahead for five minutes, please.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to welcome all the new members to this important committee. It's a committee that's very emotional, as you can see. What I find very important is that in the past, all parties have worked together in supporting our men and women who have served and who continue to serve. I thank you for being on this very important committee.

I would like to start my questions with the deputy.

Paul, it's nice to see you and Steven back here with us, of course, in support and to share some of the information that we are looking for.

Deputy, when I heard the news about the discussion about medical assistance in dying with an agent, a lot of emotions went through me. I'm just wondering how you felt when you heard that and if you want to share some of your thoughts around that.