Veterans Affairs Committee on Oct. 20th, 2022

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Mr. Chair, we're done. Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Minister.

I would now like to invite Luc Desilets to take the floor for six minutes.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. MacAulay, Mr. Ledwell, and Mr. Harris, for being here with us.

I am convinced that this story is an isolated incident. It could have happened in another way and in any other department.

I would like us to continue the discussion on the same topic.

Do we know what was said verbatim—the words used by the veteran and by the official? What exactly was said?

I am asking this question because all we know is what has appeared in the newspapers. Now we are having two committee meetings on this issue, and there may be a third.

My question may be more for Mr. Ledwell or Mr. Harris.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

You're absolutely right: I do not have that information, nor should I have that information. I will leave it to Mr. Harris to perhaps expand on that.

[Steven Harris, Assistant Deputy Minister, Service Delivery Branch, Department of Veterans Affairs]

Thank you for your question.

We don't have the full record of the conversation, because Veterans Affairs doesn't record every call. The only ones that are recorded are the ones that our call centre receives. The call in question was not made to the call centre. However, I can confirm that the employee who initiated this conversation raised the subject of medical assistance in dying with the veteran. It is true that this incident occurred with one of our employees.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

You understand the relevance of having access to the exact words spoken on both sides. The words “medical assistance in dying” can be used in any way and in any context. I am not trying to protect the employee at all.

Is there any more detailed information about this employee? Is she, among other things, an experienced person? Does she hold a permanent position or is she on contract?

Today, I learned that the employee is a woman.

Mr. Harris could start.

[Steven Harris]

I cannot speak in detail about the employee's exact situation, as it is protected by the Privacy Act. However, it has been confirmed that this discussion about medical assistance in dying took place. However, I cannot confirm what the veteran or the employee said, as the call was not recorded.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

If I were not kind, I would ask in this case for what reason this request for additional information or follow-up was made, but I will not ask you.

I will instead ask the following: will the report be made public?

Mr. MacAulay, I am interested in hearing from you because you have not spoken in a long time.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Should the committee request that the report be made public, I will certainly deal with the committee on that issue, yes.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

We will probably go in that direction later.

That's all for me, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much, Mr. Desilets.

I would like to invite Ms. Rachel Blaney to go ahead for six minutes, please.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you, Chair, as always.

Thank you to all the members who are here with us today. I appreciate your taking the time, because this is a very serious incident. I think all of us appreciate deeply the service that the people who serve us in uniform provide for us. We want to make sure that when they need assistance, they get the assistance they require. We don't want, in any way, for that assistance to go sideways. Unfortunately, this is a clear example of it going somewhere that I think none of us are comfortable with.

My first questions are, of course, for the minister.

Through the chair, Minister, how did you find out about this situation? Was it through the media report or was there a complaint provided from the veteran directly to the minister?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Thank you very much, Rachel. I certainly fully endorse everything you said previous to the question.

I was informed through my department...or by my staff, not by the department. That's how I found out. I expect that the department informed the staff.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you so much.

Minister, have you had the opportunity to reach out to that veteran and personally apologize for this?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

No.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

No. Okay. Thank you for that.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

But I have indicated quite clearly how inappropriate it was and how sorry I am. I apologized and did everything you can do legally in order to deal with this most unfortunate incident, to say the least.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I will send out this question and allow all of you to decide who should be the best person to answer it.

What I am really curious about is this: Do we have any sense of how long this member worked in the department and what their role was?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Well, employee privacy issues and all those things come in, and I think I will let the deputy minister handle that.

[Paul Ledwell]

As Mr. Harris indicated before, we can't get into the details of the individual employee, but we can tell you that it is an employee who was well established as a veterans service agent. I can also indicate to you—to earlier questions, as well—that since this came to light, this employee has not been interacting with veterans while we ascertain the issues contained in this particular circumstance.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

It leads to another question for me around training. In the training that is provided to people who work directly with veterans, I would hope there is some sort of assistance with how to address issues of MAID if the veteran brings them forward. That is because this is a very important conversation that should happen only between a person and their health provider.

We also know that veterans are often calling in distress. I would imagine that there was a thorough training process for all of those folks, so that when veterans come to them in distress, there is some capacity to address those issues and give them supports and references for where they need to go next.

Is there anything you can share with us, or could provide at a later date, around training for folks who work in the department, specifically around addressing the issue of MAID if it is brought forward? On the other part of that training, is there anything that says that a staff member should ever bring forward that idea?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Thank you very much, Rachel. That's absolutely correct. There is no way that an employee should ever bring that up.

However, as you've asked, any veteran can ask any question they wish, but if any question is asked to the department official on the front line, they are instructed through training to make sure that they bring this immediately to their supervisor and that the veteran is made aware that it's being brought to the supervisor, because we want to be open and clear. We certainly....

Veterans Affairs staff have no authority to discuss MAID or assisted dying. Of course, the veteran can ask about their pension and about programs and how programs are involved. However, the training indicates quite clearly that if any veteran brings up the issue of MAID, they are to be told that the supervisor will be informed, and the supervisor will deal with it. It's an issue that Veterans Affairs frontline workers are not to deal with.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

The supervisor must be given some training on how to address that issue when they are interacting on the other side of responding to a veteran. Could I get some clarity on what that would look like?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

I would let the deputy continue on that. As you know, with MAID it is between health authorities and the individuals themselves that the discussion is to take place. Veterans Affairs is for assistance and help in making sure that the veteran has a better life. It is not a department that deals with MAID.

Deputy, go ahead.

[Paul Ledwell]

The policy and the guidelines are very clear that our employees are not to engage directly on MAID. The only time, as indicated earlier, that they are to respond to MAID is if there is a technical question about the benefits and the impact on them. The relationship is between the veteran and their professional health care provider when it comes to the issue of MAID.

All of our frontline staff who are interacting with veterans are equipped with trauma-informed training, with training around suicide prevention and suicide awareness, and many other aspects, because of the circumstances that veterans are coming forward on. Every single member is equipped. When it comes to sensitive issues, those get elevated to more senior people within the organization.