Veterans Affairs Committee on Oct. 20th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 22 of the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs.

I would like to welcome two new members of the committee: Terry Dowdall and Blake Richards. I welcome both of them, as well as Michael Cooper, who is replacing Cathay Wagantall.

I also want to let the committee members know that Naaman Sugrue is our procedural clerk this afternoon. Audrée Dallaire is still here to ensure that the committee meeting goes smoothly.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on Monday, October 3, 2022, the committee is meeting on its study of allegations that medical assistance in dying was offered to a veteran, unprompted, by a Veterans Affairs Canada employee.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of Thursday, June 23, 2022. Members may participate in person or through the Zoom application. The proceedings will be made available on the House of Commons website. For your information, the webcast will always show the individual speaking, rather than the entirety committee.

For those participating virtually, I would like to outline a few rules to follow.

You may speak in the official language of your choice. Interpretation services are available for this meeting. You have the choice, at the bottom of your screen, of either “floor”, “English” or “French”. If interpretation is lost, please inform me immediately, and we will ensure interpretation is properly restored before resuming the proceedings.

I ask that all participants speak slowly and clearly. When you are not speaking, your microphone should be on mute.

I would now like to welcome the witnesses. First, we welcome the Honourable Lawrence MacAulay, Minister of Veterans Affairs. He is joined by Deputy Minister Paul Ledwell and Assistant Deputy Minister of the Service Delivery Branch Steven Harris, who is participating in the meeting by video conference.

Before I give the floor to Mr. MacAulay, I would like to point out that two weeks ago we participated in an announcement regarding Juno Beach. I want to make sure that the committee is aware of that because the committee made recommendations and wrote a report on Juno Beach. In fact, Mr. Desilets, the vice-chair of the committee, attended the conference.

Before I recognize the minister, I will allow Mr. Desilets to speak.

Mr. Desilets, you have the floor.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Mr. Chair, my request is very simple.

Can we confirm that the sound tests were performed for the witnesses participating in the meeting remotely and were successful?

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Yes, that has been done.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Mr. Lawrence MacAulay, you have five minutes or less for your opening statement. Please go ahead.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you for your invitation to come before the committee.

I would also like to welcome the new members of the committee. I look forward to the work that you will do on behalf of Canada's veterans and their families over the coming weeks.

I hope to be able to address the members' concern about an unfortunate situation that came up over the summer, when a Veterans Affairs employee brought up medical assistance in dying with a veteran.

The first thing that needs to be said, Mr. Chair, is that this was completely unacceptable. Our government places the highest priority on ensuring that veterans and their families have the support and services they need when and where they need them. This includes ensuring that encounters with Veterans Affairs Canada are conducted in a respectful and compassionate way.

Once I learned of the incident, Mr. Chair, I immediately ordered a thorough internal investigation into the matter and asked my department to ensure that something like this would not happen again. Thankfully, to our knowledge, we found that this issue is isolated to one employee and is not indicative of a pattern of behaviour or a systemic issue.

It is absolutely not our department's place to provide advice about medical assistance in dying, and it never has been. Our frontline staff have no mandate or role to recommend medical assistance in dying to our veteran clients. We have made that clear to all frontline staff, as well as that any conversations on the matter are for the patient to have with their primary health care professional.

Since the incident, our employees have received updated guidance about how to handle situations when a client brings this up in conversation. We have communicated specifically about medical assistance in dying with all of our frontline managers and employees to ensure that something like this does not happen again.

Again, Mr. Chair, this is a very regrettable incident and it was completely unacceptable, but the issue was isolated to one person.

On the whole, Veterans Affairs employees always strive to provide the best compassionate service to Canada's veterans.

I thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Minister, for your opening remarks.

For the first six-minute round of questions, I'd like to invite MP Blake Richards to start.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Thank you.

Thank you for your remarks, Minister.

As the new shadow minister for the veterans affairs file, I want to say what I've said to you privately, and publicly as well. When we talk about our veterans, I don't think it should be a partisan issue. You have a commitment from me that this is not how I will approach this file.

However, I will do something that is critically important: I will always demand from you, from your government and from your department that veterans be shown the utmost respect and that they always be shown that respect for the service they have given to our country. I think the subject we're talking about today is an example of that failing to happen. You've acknowledged that, and I appreciate it.

What we're talking about is a situation of a veteran coming to Veterans Affairs looking for help in a very serious situation that he was dealing with. He was crying out for help. What he got instead was the suggestion that he consider accepting assistance to kill himself, and it wasn't made just one time; it was suggested to him numerous times, and there was some insistence on the part of the official who suggested this to him. That's the understanding that I have of the situation. It is completely and utterly unacceptable, and it does not show the respect for our veterans that they deserve.

I appreciate that you've acknowledged that you regret the incident happened, and I appreciate that you have made steps to try to move forward and make sure that it doesn't happen again. You said in your opening remarks, and you have said publicly, that you have been assured that administrative action has been taken, and you are confident in ensuring this will never happen again.

Can you tell us, Minister, exactly what actions have been taken? Have all of those actions been completed? Are you absolutely confident that this will never happen again?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

First of all, I thank you very much for your words, because you're absolutely right that while partisan issues may exist in other areas, when it comes to veterans and what they've done for our country, for democracy and for peace, and when we look at what's taking place in the world.... I thank you so much, because in working together, we can make it better for sure.

I can assure you that immediately upon hearing this, I instructed my deputy to conduct an investigation on just what happened and what took place. He's sitting right here with me, so I think it would be more than wise to ask him to explain that to you.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Could you do so as briefly as you can? We don't have a lot of time, obviously. I would like to hear what steps have been taken, but I would like to hear from you before we do that, Minister.

Can you assure us and assure veterans that something like this will never happen again?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

I will assure you, my friend, that I will do everything to make sure.

We're dealing with human beings. We're trying to help human beings. There's no excuse for what happened here. It's totally wrong and unacceptable. I'll do everything in my power—and I'm sure the deputy will emphasize that—to make sure that the likes of this.... It is awful, unacceptable and just terrible. We have to make sure that this does not happen.

We have a great group of public servants in Veterans Affairs. This was wrong in every way, but I want to give my deputy a minute. Go ahead.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Just before we go to your deputy, because we do have him for some more time later, can you tell me what the consequences were for the VAC worker involved in making this repeated suggestion to a veteran, which was completely and utterly offside? What were the consequences in that situation?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Of course, this part of the investigation is handled by the department. I asked for it to take place, and he will report back to me on what took place. It's an ongoing situation, I believe, that's being dealt with just to make sure that the staff is trained and updated and they know how to handle these issues.

For an example, a veteran can ask whatever they wish to a worker, but a frontline worker cannot discuss this issue with a veteran.

If this does happen, they're instructed to go to their supervisor right away with that issue and indicate to the veteran—and that's exactly what they did—just to make sure that this is handled and to do everything possible to make sure this horrible situation does not happen again.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

You just indicated that the investigation is ongoing. That's what I think I heard there.

Now, it's been just a little over two months since this was reported publicly and longer than that since the incident occurred. When we're talking about a situation of a veteran coming crying for help to Veterans Affairs and instead it's suggested that maybe they should consider killing themselves, to me that sounds like it should be a high priority to deal with.

I would suggest this is far too long for an investigation into that. It should be a number one priority to make sure this doesn't happen again. When an investigation is ongoing, that tells me that maybe it wasn't taken as seriously as it should have been.

Can you tell me when the investigation will be done and what kinds of consequences would be faced on the part of an employee if this occurred again in the future?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Of course, the consequences that will be taken now or in the future are up to the department. They administer the staff at the department. That is what they do. We put the rules in place and the department implements the rules. That's what they're doing right now.

Again, in all fairness, when you wish to speak to the deputy, I would have to let him explain it to you and to take a minute and just give you some—

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

I would be happy to let him do so now, but it sounds like that might not be possible. I guess I'll have to see if I can—

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

You can ask in another round.

Indeed I can tell you, Mr. Richards, that when I heard of it, I immediately instructed him to do this and to make sure that every measure was taken.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

I appreciate that and I will ask him about it when—

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Minister, I'm sorry; the time is up.

I'll just remind members that the minister is here for an hour and that we'll have the two other witnesses with us later.

Right now I'd like to go to MP Churence Rogers for six minutes, please.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome to the new members of the committee, by the way. I'm looking forward to working with you on behalf of all of our veterans.

Thank you, Minister, for being here, and Mr. Ledwell, thank you for being here as well.

I too was shocked, Mr. Minister, when we heard about this. Quite frankly, it's a very sensitive issue that I was somewhat aghast about. I'm wondering what kind of questions I should even ask you today on how something like this could possibly happen.

Anyway, I heard your initial comments, so I'll go through some of these.

Can we continue to improve VAC staff training in light of this?

I'll also ask you what safeguards can be put in place or have been put in place to ensure that an incident like this never happens again, particularly when we hire new staff going forward.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Thank you very much, Mr. Rogers.

I indicated what was done. What I did immediately when I heard of it is I went to the deputy and said that I want this investigated and dealt with. How that's dealt with is up to the department.

What we have to do, and make sure that we continue to do, is have the appropriate training for veterans. You never expect the likes of this to ever happen. It's inappropriate no matter what way you look at it, totally wrong, but you have human beings dealing with human beings. What we have to do is make sure....

I've been around politics a long time—in fact, I've been in Veterans Affairs previously—and I would have to say that the Veterans Affairs staff are probably the most dedicated public servants I've ever met, but this was a mistake and it was wrong and it was unacceptable. In whatever words you could use, it's totally wrong in every way.

What you do when this comes up is you put a training program in place. It will probably include more than that, but that's not the field I'm in. I will make sure this is properly investigated and dealt with and that the training programs are in place. The deputy will indicate to you later, or right now if you wish, what is taking place.

Perhaps you'd like to hear that.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Sure.

Mr. Ledwell, if you'd like to comment, sure.

[Paul Ledwell, Deputy Minister, Department of Veterans Affairs]

To be clear, our first order of business when this transpired was to focus on the veteran with whom this transpired and to make sure that veteran is addressed. That took place immediately and regularly upon learning of this.

In terms of the training, we put out a notice to all our staff to make it very clear that our employees are not to engage on medical assistance in dying. We can provide support for questions that are brought forward for anyone who might have questions with respect to benefits and anything that might affect the benefits for them or their family members. We provided that clarification. We undertook training sessions with the entirety of our frontline staff, any staff member who is engaging with veterans.

That training has occurred now with 75% of those frontline staff. We will get to 100%. That training also will be underlined and made mandatory for every member of staff and every new member of staff to underline the fact that we are a department, we are employees who are not to engage with veterans on medical assistance in dying. We are only to be there to respond to any questions they might have with respect to the benefits and the effect on that.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Ledwell.

Minister, I was somewhat relieved to hear that this was an isolated incident, that there were not a number of these cases. That in itself was a bit of a relief.

Going forward, Minister, we know it's important to hire and retain staff people who deal directly with veterans, and the more experience they have, the better they are at their jobs.

Have we made any recent investments in our frontline staff to try to make sure we get the right people in place and the right number of people?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

That's a very good question and it's totally appropriate. Yes, we place the highest priority on making sure that veterans and their families receive the support they should, and with that, it's exactly what you said: It's to have the people in place in order to deal with it.

We have increased funding for case management service in response to meeting demands. We have about 14,000 veterans dealing with case managers. In fact, we just have invested $43 million to extend 89 frontline staff, including 50 case managers and 25 veterans service agents for an additional three years, which will help reduce the ratio and allow veteran managers to spend more time with their veterans.

You continually attempt and work hard to make sure you have the appropriate people in place to deal with the veterans. I think it's fair to say that we do that.