Veterans Affairs Committee on Oct. 20th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Minister, the request has been made formally to the Department of Veterans Affairs.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank you, Minister, for appearing before the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs.

Without suspending the meeting, we will continue with the deputy minister and the assistant deputy minister for the next hour.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

You're very welcome, sir.

On second thought, we will take a break to acknowledge the minister. Therefore, the meeting is suspended for one minute.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

We are resuming the meeting.

Members of the committee, I would like to remind you to submit your witness lists for the study on a national strategy for veterans employment after service, in order of priority, to the clerk by October 28, 2022, by 4 p.m.

Yes, Madam Blaney?

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I'm sorry. Please carry on.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Second, I'd like to remind the committee that you have already received the report on marriage after 60. We will study that report on Thursday, October 27.

We will consider this report in camera over the course of maybe two meetings.

Go ahead, please.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Chair, I'm sorry to interrupt you. Thank you so much for giving me this time.

I just wanted to check in with you, Chair, because I think at this point we don't have a first vice-chair. I was just hoping that I could move a motion to nominate Blake Richards as the first vice-chair of this committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Okay.

That's fine.

So we move to the election of the first vice-chair.

Pursuant to Standing Order 106(2), the first vice-chair must be a member of the official opposition.

I am now prepared to receive motions for the position of first vice-chair.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I'm happy to nominate Blake Richards.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

You've nominated me twice?

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Twice—you owe me, my friend.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Ms. Blaney.

Rachel Blaney has moved that Blake Richards be elected first vice-chair of the committee.

Are there any further motions?

There are no further motions.

Is it the pleasure of the committee to adopt the motion?

I see that we have consent.

I declare the motion carried and Blake Richards duly elected first vice-chair of the committee.

(Motion agreed to)

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Congratulations.

Let's go back to our witnesses, whom I thank for their patience.

We now turn to Michael Cooper, for the next five minutes.

Please go ahead, Mr. Cooper.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Deputy Minister, the minister described the conduct of the veterans service agent in pressuring a veteran to have MAID as completely unacceptable and horrible. He used other words to condemn those actions, and rightly so, but I would submit that not only are they completely inappropriate and horrible; they may also be criminal.

Under section 241 of the Criminal Code, it is an indictable offence, punishable up to 14 years, for someone to counsel or aid in suicide, whether or not a suicide occurs. There is an exemption, a very specific and narrow exemption, that provides that a medical practitioner or nurse practitioner is exempt from the general offence provided they offer such advice in the context of MAID in accordance with the MAID provisions of the Criminal Code.

With that in mind, has this matter been referred to law enforcement?

[Paul Ledwell]

I appreciate the question very much, and the particular aspect that you're raising.

As part of our review and our investigation into this, we're looking at all aspects, including the seriousness of the issues as you are raising them. In this case, this was a conversation and not advice to pursue this MAID, but we are very much understanding the issues that you're raising and the context of the code that you are underlining. This is part of the consideration. We're looking at all aspects of this incident as part of the review and the investigation.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you for that, Mr. Deputy Minister.

The investigation is ongoing, so if there is evidence that arises in the course of the investigation to establish the possibility of criminal wrongdoing, I presume that this will be immediately referred to law enforcement so that a criminal investigation can be opened and potentially the individual could be criminally prosecuted. That's if there is evidence of criminal wrongdoing, recognizing that there is an ongoing investigation.

[Paul Ledwell]

I think the point is whether there is evidence that is well established in this regard. Our undertaking and our review of this is very much in terms of the operations under which we function as a department, and the guidelines and the policy by which we function, as well as the labour considerations in relation to this incident. That's been the primary focus of this undertaking.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

I think there ought to be some real focus on exactly what this employee engaged in and their specific conduct, including whether or not they crossed the line, broke the law and committed an offence that, again, is an indictable offence punishable by up to 14 years behind bars. A very serious criminal offence potentially could have taken place. I hope that is not brushed aside. I hope that is vigorously pursued. I think the veteran who was impacted and victimized by this employee deserves that, and all veterans deserve that, if in fact the minister is sincere, and I believe he is, that he does not want to see this ever happen again and that it should never happen again.

Now, with respect to this particular employee, I concur with Mr. Dowdall that alarm bells are ringing that this was a long-serving employee who frankly should have known better, one would hope. Both you and the minister spoke about the protocol that is in place. The protocol that was explained is that as soon as MAID is brought up, an agent is to then go to their supervisor and cease engaging on the topic of MAID.

Based upon what I understand you said, that didn't happen in the case of that other individual. Am I correct in that? There was this veteran, but there was also another veteran. They broke the protocol...?

[Paul Ledwell]

The issue in this case is the situation of the individual employee raising the issue of MAID with the veteran, which we have identified and acknowledged as highly inappropriate. That's been well established.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

But in the other incident, where—

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

I'm sorry, Mr. Cooper. Your time is up.

Now I'd like to go to MP Sean Casey for five minutes, please.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It has been suggested, and I think stated as fact in the preamble to some of the questions, that the employee in question suggested several times to the veteran—insisted upon—the availability of medical assistance in dying, and pressured the veteran into medical assistance in dying. Are any of these things true?

[Paul Ledwell]

We have not been able to verify or establish those as the situation in this case. We have been able to establish and verify that the employee has acknowledged, and certainly the veteran has identified, that this issue was raised with them unprompted, which was highly inappropriate. We've not been able to see any case of the employee in question persisting in this and continuing. Certainly if there's any information in that regard, we would seek that to come forward so that we can include it in the consideration and the review of the investigation of this situation.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

The minister was pressed very hard to apologize directly to the veteran. Does the minister know the identity and the whereabouts of the veteran?