Veterans Affairs Committee on Nov. 24th, 2022

[Paul Ledwell]

Absolutely not. That is not the case.

Our policy is clear, and our guidelines are clear. It is a conversation that should not take place in any substantive manner between a Veterans Affairs Canada employee and a veteran.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Would it be fair to say that on the issues that are arising—if this is bigger than what we expect it to be—it's because there have been problems in the training or with an unclear mandate?

[Paul Ledwell]

If I could, Mr. Chair, I think we've established through our investigation thus far that it is clear in all of our 402,000 file reviews that these are four cases affiliated with one employee. This is an isolated situation, as we've been able to determine. It is not widespread within the department.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Ledwell.

Now we'll go to Mr. Sean Casey for five minutes, please.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Ledwell, when you appeared before the committee on October 20, I asked you whether the union had taken a position with respect to this case, and you said that they had not taken a public position.

Has that changed since you last appeared before committee?

[Paul Ledwell]

No, it has not.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Have you seen the letter that they sent to the committee today?

[Paul Ledwell]

I have not seen that letter.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Okay. Let's go through it, because it appears to be the first public proclamation they've made with respect to this issue.

They have attached something that was sent to veterans service agents on November 14, asking them to take mandatory self-guided learning. They then referenced something called NOTP training, which has been offered in P.E.I. since 2018.

What's NOTP training? Mr. Harris, can you help with that?

[Steven Harris]

It's a national orientation training program. It's our group here that offers centralized training on all things related to interaction with our veteran clients. That's for case managers, for VSAs and for others as well.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

The letter that has been submitted to the committee—and is, therefore, public—indicates that “training was being held in PEI since 2018 for new employees onboarding however since the pandemic these moved to virtual and they”—I presume that means you, Mr. Harris, Mr. Ledwell and the department—“were not providing most training during the pandemic on suicide prevention to new employees or refreshers for staff who had been there many years.”

I would ask you to comment on the veracity of the public allegation that the department, since the pandemic, has not been providing training on suicide prevention to new employees or providing refreshers.

[Steven Harris]

As you know, the training, since the pandemic started, moved to virtual as people weren't in offices and people weren't able to travel. It has continued in a virtual format, and that has included training related to suicide prevention.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

The next sentence talks about a course called “ASSIST Suicide Prevention Training”. What is the ASSIST suicide prevention training program, which was apparently delivered through something called “LivingWorks”?

Can you help us with that?

[Steven Harris]

I have to go back to get the specific details of that particular program. I'd be happy to provide them back to the committee.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Okay.

Specifically, I'm looking for a response to the union's public statement that there used to be a course called “ASSIST Suicide Training Program” through LivingWorks. However, the national president of the union said, “I cannot remember the last time that ASSIST was provided in our department.” It appears that you can't, either.

Maybe it's quite dated, but I think it would be helpful to respond to that public statement.

[Steven Harris]

I would be happy to provide information back to the committee related to the training that's been offered during that period of time.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Thank you.

The last time you came before the committee, I asked about whether it is possible to terminate a civil servant. The response I got was that any disciplinary action, including termination, is subject to collective agreements.

Have you had conversations or any involvement with the union? Have they reached out to you to attempt to collaborate on resolving this issue, whether it's through a disciplinary process or any other process?

[Paul Ledwell]

It is of course possible, through a disciplinary process, to terminate an employee, particularly around misconduct and particularly around a series of misconduct.

The union has been engaged through the disciplinary process, but it is standard practice that the union would have representation alongside the employee through that process.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Back to the letter....

Oh, I'm sorry. It appears my time is done.

Thank you very much for being with us. This is an extremely difficult issue and we appreciate the professional way in which you've handled it. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Casey.

We still have two speakers for two and a half minutes each.

Mr. Desilets, you have the floor.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to go along with Mr. Casey.

Have any case managers been terminated in the past two years?

[Steven Harris]

I need to think about that for a minute. I don't believe so, but I'm not entirely sure. I'll need to check.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

How many case managers are there in Canada in total?

[Steven Harris]

There are about 475 case managers.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Can you give us an example of an inappropriate relationship a case manager might have with a veteran? Have you had to manage similar cases? If so, can you describe them?