Veterans Affairs Committee on Nov. 24th, 2022

[Steven Harris]

Just quickly, I would say it's incumbent upon us to be proactive in disclosing the results of the investigation and sharing it publicly with members of the committee, and with veterans, so they understand the action we've taken as a result of the incidents identified, the seriousness with which we take this, and how we're going to proceed to address this issue going forward.

It's incumbent upon the department to make sure we're sharing that information broadly, so everybody can see it—see the work we've done to address it, and the work we're doing.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Harris.

Luc Desilets now has the floor for the next six minutes.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Harris, I understand that it's difficult to find out the current status of this employee. However, if he is neither on leave nor close to retirement, can you assure us that he will be suspended or terminated?

[Steven Harris]

We will wait until the end of the process to make a final decision on his status in the department. We need to wait until all the data and facts are available before we make a final decision. We have a process to follow, and we need to see it through.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

That's wise of you, except that I understand you already have a lot of information in hand. The minister called it a disgusting and unacceptable situation. I assume that you have enough to give me an answer.

[Steven Harris]

In my opinion, the investigation should be completed. You can't make a determination in the middle of an investigation or because you have enough information. There is a process in place, both for the employee and with respect to the collective agreement, and it needs to be seen through.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Did you know that the veteran in question had recorded the last few conversations?

[Steven Harris]

That's what's been published in the media. I believe a witness who appeared before the committee mentioned it, but I'm unable to confirm that it's true. However, I have heard that there are recordings.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Okay.

It's my understanding that one in 25 interviews is randomly recorded.

Is that correct?

[Steven Harris]

This allegation came out in the media today. I can state that it's not true. No conversations between VSAs, or veterans service agents, veterans and their families are recorded.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Okay.

I don't know if it was you or Mr. Ledwell who said it, but it seems that thousands of files were closely examined, and the term “medical assistance in dying” or its abbreviation, “MAiD”, came up in only four of them. Is that what was said?

[Paul Ledwell]

Not exactly. There were four cases discussed where the term was used by the employee first, but not by the veteran.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Okay, I understand.

It would be quite surprising if the term didn't appear in hundreds of files. In the current context, using the term “medical assistance in dying” or talking about it is entirely inappropriate. However, the subject must come up occasionally in the files and VSAs must occasionally have to discuss it. They may be prompted to do so by veterans.

Can we agree on that?

[Paul Ledwell]

Yes, you're right.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Okay.

One thing worries me. One of you—perhaps it was the minister—said that 90% of employees had taken relevant training related to medical assistance in dying. Is that correct?

[Steven Harris]

Yes.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Okay.

Could it be that older employees nearing retirement do not or did not have access to this training?

[Steven Harris]

All employees have access to the training. Some may not have had the opportunity to complete the training yet because they were on leave, but all employees have access to training. This was not self-directed training. It was provided by a departmental standards training and evaluation officer.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Was this training mandatory?

[Steven Harris]

Yes.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Okay.

I'll share my concern with you.

A firm will soon be taking over, but are we going to have a guarantee that those 6,000 or 9,000 employees, if I'm not mistaken, are going to receive similar training?

[Steven Harris]

We will ensure that contractors are well trained to meet veterans' needs.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Perfect.

Thank you very much for your responses.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much, Mr. Desilets.

Now let's go to Ms. Rachel Blaney for six minutes, please.