Veterans Affairs Committee on Nov. 24th, 2022

[Paul Ledwell, Deputy Minister, Department of Veterans Affairs]

Of course.

After our briefing with the minister this week, and after receiving the analysis of all the files, we know that four employees have discussed the matter. We spoke with people from the RCMP yesterday to inform them of that and send the files to them.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

When are you going to send us those files? When can we get them?

[Paul Ledwell]

I can't say because it's in the RCMP's hands.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Okay.

Have any other agencies been made aware of these cases, such as the Office of the Veterans Ombudsman or the Union of Veterans' Affairs Employees?

I am directing my question to you, Mr. MacAuley, or Mr. Harris.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Go ahead, Mr. Harris.

[Steven Harris, Assistant Deputy Minister, Service Delivery Branch, Department of Veterans Affairs]

I'm not aware of the information being shared. Neither the office of the ombudsman nor any other agency has told us they are aware of any such cases.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Okay.

Mr. MacAuley, you were presented with the file and given an update. I guess there was some new information, other than the four mistakes that were found.

Did the fourth mistake make you decide to entrust the RCMP with this?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Well, of course I can tell you that when the investigation is completed—and I did indicate this previously at the committee—the committee will be provided with the details of the investigation so that you fully understand what took place.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

When exactly was the employee suspended?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

It's a human resource issue that's dealt with by the department, Mr. Desilets. They handle the employee part. I would have to turn that over to the deputy.

Thank you so much.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Does one of the deputy ministers know?

I assume that you had to interview people. So how long ago was the employee suspended?

[Paul Ledwell]

Mr. Chair, what I can tell you is that, as the minister said, the employee has had no contact with veterans since the event and is not at work.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

He is suspended, if I understand correctly.

[Paul Ledwell]

I can't provide specific details due to a confidentiality issue. However, I can assure you that the employee is not at work and has no contact with veterans.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I'm surprised that this information is not public given the three incidents that have been added. Normally, we would be made aware of this. It's public. All of his colleagues know. He's either on sick leave or suspended, or he has resigned.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Mr. Desilets, I will tell you that we don't want to affect the case itself or whatever might develop. This is a human resource issue and we have to be careful.

I'll let the deputy answer, if he has any more to add to it, but I doubt he does.

[Paul Ledwell]

The minister is absolutely right. We want to make sure that the investigation goes smoothly.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Okay, thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Desilets.

Now I'd like to ask MP Rachel Blaney to ask questions for six minutes, please.

Go ahead.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair. I appreciate that.

Through you, Mr. Chair, I want to express my feeling of frustration right now. The last time the minister was here with his crew, we were told that there were two incidents. Now we're hearing that there are four and there may be five. It's getting really concerning.

I think the other thing that is important in this context is that there is no way the Department of Veterans Affairs could assist anyone in any way around MAID. That is something that is clearly not in the legislation. At the same time, veterans should not be calling and asking for help and being offered this as something that they can select. That's what's very concerning to me right here in this situation.

One of the things I keep coming back to is the fact that, from what I understand from the last testimony on October 20, when veterans call into the call centre and have conversations, those are recorded, yet if a caseworker calls the veteran, then those are not recorded. When I hear how much confusion there is about what happened, it seems to me that if there was a recording that was kept confidential, and if veterans were made aware of it, then it would allow for the department to actually address this issue in a more meaningful way.

Could I just get clarity from you, Minister? I appreciate your being here today. I also want to publicly express my condolences for your loss not too long ago.

Can we get some clarification? Is this being explored so that we can protect veterans, so that when this sort of incident happens there is a process in place that allows us to get down to the facts so we can protect the veterans who, hopefully, we are all here to serve?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Thank you very much, Rachel.

This is what the investigation is for. It's important to note that it's one employee out of thousands of civil servants who are very compassionate and dedicated employees of Veterans Affairs Canada.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I agree with you, Minister. I think most of the workers are incredible. I think we both agree on that.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

I know you do.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

However, to me, the point is that the department records some conversations, but not all conversations. This is what we heard in the last testimony, that it's about confidentiality. You're recording some of those. Why are those conversations less confidential than other conversations? It doesn't make any sense.

Could I ask you to focus on this? Are there any discussions happening about making sure there are recordings, so that, if something like this happens again, you can identify who the person is? You could go back and find that out, so there could be a higher level of accountability. It also protects veterans.

I think of Immigration. Every single call that comes into Immigration is recorded. Those are very confidential conversations and, often, very personal conversations. I'm not really understanding the difference. This is about protecting veterans.

Are there any conversations happening within the department to consider this, or to give the veterans the ability to say, “Yes, I want this recorded” or “No, I don't”? We're hearing so much right now. It's not clear, and it doesn't feel as if the department knows what's happening, either.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Rachel, thank you very much.

I know you care. I know you know this department quite well. You are right. Call centres are general, and that is recorded. Case managers' calls have personal medical information, and it's a privacy issue. No, they will not be recorded, because it would be inappropriate.

You mentioned MAID in your opening statement. The fact is that there is absolutely no way we can have anybody here discussing MAID. That is an issue dealt with between—