Veterans Affairs Committee on Nov. 24th, 2022

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you, Minister. I'm sorry to interrupt, but I only have a few minutes.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

I only have that, too, and I want to answer your question. The point is that it's the same type of thing. It's to make sure it's between the doctor—

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

If it comes in through the call centre, it's referred directly to a case manager, just like that, from my understanding. That is recorded.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

That's right.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Unless there is something I don't understand.... If it comes through the call centre and it's forwarded to the case manager, that call continues to be recorded. However, if a case manager.... I need clarification. I see Mr. Ledwell shaking his head. That's what I'm trying to ask. I need that clarified. If I could get an answer for that, it would be appreciated.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Quite simply, when the call is transferred or referred, the taping stops. Case managers deal with personal medical issues, which, for privacy reasons, cannot be recorded. Unless the deputy wishes to add something to this, I believe that's—

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Are there no discussions about changing that, at this time, Minister? That is through you, Mr. Chair. I apologize.

There are no conversations about changing that. Is that correct?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

The answer is no, because we cannot tape personal medical information. We just can't do that, nor should we.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Okay. Well, thank you for that.

The next thing I want to come back to is training. We heard, on the 20th, that all workers are trained. I think you said 75% of them are trained, at this point. I wonder if I can get clarification. Are all staff trained, or are only 75% trained?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

About 90% of the people are trained. I think everybody in the department has information on this, information on the issue at hand. It is certainly well circulated that you are not to discuss the issue. That has been clearly indicated to all frontline workers, in order to make sure this is not discussed and it's—

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Minister. Your time is up.

Now, for the second round of questions, I'd like to invite Mr. Blake Richards for five minutes.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Thank you.

I want to pick up where we left off. Before I do that, I have another question. I think I'll follow up a bit on Mr. Desilets' conversation with you.

You're telling us that the employee in question.... We're talking about an employee who has now counselled at least four veterans on assisted suicide. One of those veterans is widely reported to no longer be with us. One veteran has lost his life. This happened over the course of about three years. Are you telling us that this employee is still employed at Veterans Affairs?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

I can tell you that this employee has no interaction with veterans. This is a labour relations issue—

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Sure, Minister, I understood what you said—

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

I'm sure you do understand the point, but if you want to ask—

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

You're repeating what you said previously.

Minister, if I can, you're repeating what you said previously, and I only have so much time. I understand what you're saying. You say this employee has no interaction with veterans, but you have referred the case of this employee and what they've done. You've called it inappropriate. It's potentially criminal, because you've referred it to the RCMP. There is at least one veteran who has lost their life as a result of this. Are you telling me those aren't grounds to fire an employee? This employee is still employed at Veterans Affairs. That is completely unacceptable, Minister.

Now, it doesn't seem like you're going to give me an answer, but it certainly sounds like they are still employed, and they shouldn't be.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Well, I'd just like to respond to you. I think you fully understand that the labour relations process is under way. There's a police referral. I think you would understand fully what has to take place here. We do not want to jeopardize the situation.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Understood.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

We want to make sure that veterans are cared for.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

That's fine. We'll agree to disagree on that one, Minister, because I'll tell you, when we're talking about veterans who are being counselled to take their lives and are being pressured, frankly, which happened in the one case, the first case that came forward in the media. In the case of Bruce, I would strongly suggest that you listen to this podcast, because you'll be appalled, Minister. In Bruce's case it was the same thing: Pressure was applied to consider this. That's completely inappropriate.

Let's return to where we were in terms of the court case, because in that podcast, which I would suggest you listen to, Bruce mentioned twice.... He used the word “we”, repeating back what he was told by the worker at Veterans Affairs, the employee at Veterans Affairs. In both cases, he used the word “we”. He said that they had told him that “we” had recently won a litigation to assist a member with MAID and that “we” helped a member win a case in court with assistance.

Do you have any idea who “we” is? Did Veterans Affairs participate in litigation or in court proceedings of any kind, or any kind of legal proceedings, to help a veteran have access to medical assistance in dying?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

No. We have no record of a court case or litigation on a situation like this.

I can tell you again—and I think you want this to happen—to make sure that Bruce, whoever Bruce is, makes contact, because we want to help, and you do too.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Sure. Yes, we all do. It's only a matter of how we do that.

I really hope that you'll take this very seriously, because when I hear “we”, that implies it wasn't the worker themselves. That implies it was Veterans Affairs. When they're speaking to a veteran in their employment at Veterans Affairs, they are speaking on behalf of Veterans Affairs. They have implied to this veteran that Veterans Affairs went to court on behalf of a veteran to try to give them an opportunity to commit suicide.

That is obviously a pretty concerning allegation. I hope you're going to investigate that, Minister.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Well, you asked me a question. I would tell you absolutely, yes, we are. Of course, I do take this very seriously. It's heart-wrenching to see the likes of this happen—

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Yes, absolutely.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

—and I want to make sure. That's why it's referred. That's why we want a proper investigation. That's why I wanted to tell you exactly what the situation was, to the best of my ability.