Veterans Affairs Committee on Dec. 5th, 2022

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I don't know if this is confidential information, but could you give us a list of the people consulted together with their positions, Mr. Harris?

[Steven Harris]

I don't believe we can disclose their names. However, we can definitely tell you the number of organizations, other parties and veterans that were consulted both in and outside the department.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

That information would be very relevant to the committee's work. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Desilets.

I now give the floor to Rachel Blaney for two and a half minutes.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

I'm very concerned about this, because what I've heard from numerous case managers and from numerous veterans is that the numbers of people providing services have gone down, rather than up. That concerns me. It feels like we're being sold a bag of goods. It says 9,000 service providers, which is fewer than before.

I understand, and I've heard this directly from service providers, that their pay level has gone down because of this contract. They're getting less money to provide the same services that they were providing before. That is very concerning. I certainly hope that is addressed in a meaningful way, because I don't want good service providers to stop providing valued services to veterans because they aren't making what they used to make for the same work. It makes no sense.

We have also heard that the PCVRS and the RS—rehab service—specialists don't know how to get the clinical care manager in place for a veteran. That used to be put in place through Blue Cross, but there is a gap, so that position doesn't seem to be clear.

We then heard from service providers who are trying to provide the services and trying to fill out the appropriate work. They did the expression of interest and then they got the form. The services they provide are not on the list. They're trying to figure out from the office where to put it, whether it is a different category and whether the office can explain the form, and they're not getting answers for months. This means they are not providing the service, because the deadline has passed.

I am really concerned.

We also heard from multiple case managers that the process that unfolded didn't make a lot of sense. They didn't know how to do it. They were concerned about providing their services to the veteran. They're worried because many of their jobs are not steady. They're often temporary workers.

I look at all this.... Based on the testimony we had in this committee from case managers, we had multiple case managers emailing our committee saying, “Yes, we totally agree with this testimony”, so it seems to me that there are all of these issues.

How are they going to be addressed? How is this committee going to be made aware that these issues are being dealt with in a meaningful way, so that veterans get the services they deserve?

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Minister, you have only 30 seconds.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

My heavens, Chair, you're skimping on my time, but whatever.

Ms. Blaney, the fact is that there are more experts in the field, not fewer, and that will expand. There are more sites available now than there were, and that will expand.

The consultation process was held with key stakeholders and subject matter experts with Veterans Canada, case managers, field representatives and the union. We made sure we had everybody involved we could possibly involve.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Minister.

There are two last interventions of five minutes each.

I'd like to invite, on the screen, MP Fraser Tolmie for five minutes, please.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, veterans come from a career where other peoples' lives depend on them, and their lives depend on others. Trust is their code and their culture; it is a culture of trust. This fundamental core value is essential when a vet hands over that trust to a caseworker, but, from what I can see, from my chair, trust is broken.

When there has been very little or no consultation in the rollout of this contract, this further breaks the trust of the vet who is waiting on proper care.

What has been shared by you in this committee and in past meetings doesn't line up with what is going on with those who have come forward and shared their testimony. This investigation that you speak of concerning MAID is just a review of files. More has come out from media sources, podcasts and this committee than has come out from your providing information to this committee. In fact, you've had to answer to these revelations rather than report them. Ms. Gauthier showed up with a suitcase of files and personal notes not addressed.

Has Veterans Affairs created a loophole for MAID?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

I am sorry that you would ask that question, but you can ask what you wish.

The fact is, absolutely not. There were four situations developed by one case worker, which was totally unacceptable. When I heard about it, I made sure that the deputy conducted an investigation. Then I asked him to extend the investigation, and the RCMP are now involved.

You talk about trust, and trust is so vitally important. We have thousands of Veterans Affairs staff who truly work hard and care so much about the veterans you spoke about. The facts are the facts that I just gave you, and if the facts change, we want to know what the facts are that change, but somebody can't just say something about something somewhere. We have to deal with facts as far as this is concerned.

If there are more people out there, if you have more information out there, we want to know it. The department wants to know it to make sure that we address this appropriately.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you.

Mr. Tolmie, go ahead, please.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Yes, well, number one, we should not be doing the investigation for you, and that's where the breakdown of trust has come, Minister. No one trusts you. They're not coming forward to you because they don't trust this department, and this lies squarely on you, sir.

What are you going to do to regain that trust within this department and within those vets who are looking for help? What are you going to do?

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Excuse me, Mr. Tolmie. Wait just a second; we have a translation problem.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Yes, there's no interpretation into French.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Mr. Tolmie, could you unplug and plug your headset back in, please? We have a problem with translation.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Is that okay?

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

No, it's not good. Try it again.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

I'll try this one more time. There we go.

How about if I put my mike down a little bit?

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

We still have a problem with your sound for translation.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

I'll unplug one more time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

By the time you do that.... I think you've already asked the minister your question, so he can answer. There are two minutes left.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

If people feel like my honourable colleague has indicated, they can talk to the ombudsperson, who will directly inform the department of whatever issue should come forward.

What I want to do is make sure that veterans feel fully comfortable to come to Veterans Affairs. We have an issue, a totally unacceptable issue. We're dealing with the issue, but what we have to do is make sure that veterans feel comfortable to come to Veterans Affairs.

I am not conducting an investigation. The department and the RCMP are conducting the investigation. As I said many times, what we want to do is make sure we get the facts. If you have facts that will assist the investigation, please bring them forward, but we need facts. If we have facts, we will deal with them.

What's vitally important with all the programs.... You're fully aware of all the programs we've put in place since 2015—

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Minister.

We have one minute left. Let's try with Mr. Tolmie.

I think your sound is not good enough, Mr. Tolmie.

Go ahead, Mr. Desilets.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I don't know what you're going to do for the rest of the meeting, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Tolmie asked his question in English, but I didn't get the interpretation into French. I wanted to intervene when the minister was speaking, but I couldn't hear the question. However, I did hear the answer.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

All right. I believe a technician has tried to call Mr. Tolmie.

If you want to share your time, maybe one of your colleagues will be.... We have one minute left.