Veterans Affairs Committee on Feb. 9th, 2023

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Perfect. Please speak in French. The interpretation is amazing, so whatever works best for you is great.

The other question I have is with regard to the supports for military spouses and dependents. Having represented a base for a long time, I know that one of the challenges is often that the spouses and dependents are sometimes frustrated because they're moving from place to place and they don't have the ability to develop their careers.

What kinds of supports do you have in place, and how do you feel they support the veteran?

[Normand Trépanier]

Right. I'm going to speak in French.

We offer the same support for our veterans' spouses and dependants. There is no difference, no discrimination. We use exactly the same process as for the veterans. I'm glad you asked the question.

The spouses and their children follow the veterans from one end of Canada to another, as very often happens. At about the age of 18, quite often, the children don't really know what to do. We have started helping these young people, and it's working. We have placed people who are quite happy. Their moms and dads call us to thank us.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you.

[Normand Trépanier]

I would like to add one last thing, if I may.

Our organization, Helmets to Hardhats, also helps our veterans experiencing homelessness. We help them find a job, provided they want one. A veteran is a veteran 365 days a year, not just on November 11.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Ms. Blaney.

That's where we're going to stop for this panel.

On behalf of the members of the committee, I'd like to thank the witnesses for their participation in this study. From the Aerospace Industries Association of Canada, we had Mr. Mike Mueller, president and chief executive officer. From Helmets to Hardhats,

Gentlemen, after listening to you, I assume you have also gone the "Helmets to Hardhats" route. Since I have the impression that you have served, I would also like to thank you for your military service.

We had Mr. Paul Bury, director, transition services; and Mr. Normand Trépanier, deputy director.

Thank you so much.

Members, we're going to take a short break in order to salute our witnesses and welcome the new ones.

I will now suspend the meeting.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

We will now proceed to the second panel of witnesses.

I will give a quick reminder to our witnesses that before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name unless a member calls on you directly or asks you a question. When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly. When you are not speaking, your mike should be on mute.

I would like to welcome our witnesses. I'm pleased to say that we have with us tonight, from the Persian Gulf Veterans of Canada, Harold Davis, president.

We also have with us Alexandre Tremblay, chief executive officer, safety and health, for Prévactions.

Both witnesses are online.

Gentlemen, I am going to let you know when you have one minute left to speak. When you see the red card, you have to stop.

I would like to give the floor to Mr. Davis for five minutes or less.

Please go ahead with your remarks.

[Harold Davis, President, Persian Gulf Veterans of Canada]

Good evening, and thank you very much for inviting me to the hearing on a national strategy for veterans employment after service.

I was a weapons systems technician in the air force for almost 32 years. My trade was working with munitions, aircraft weapon systems and bomb disposal for most of my career.

After I passed the 20-year mark, I started to wonder what I would do once I retired, but at that time, I didn't think much more of it. In 2009, the day came when I was medically released and my 35-year retirement plan went out the window. If you don't think that is scary, let me tell you, it is. A family, mortgage and car payments are normal for most veterans, but now I had to figure out what my next job would be.

I got lucky in some ways. I had a retraining package because I was medically released. Friends who got out for other reasons did not.

I thought I would look at my trade. I know how my trade translates to civilian life. It doesn't, unless you know someone who wants a weapons system on their plane or a bomb made, for I was trained in bomb disposal. None of these translate to civilian life.

As I said, I got lucky. My retraining package worked for me, and I had a 10-year career with Shared Services Canada as a network analyst.

The system as it stands right now only works sometimes. From what I've heard from Gulf War veterans, it's more on the not working side. I want you to hear some of the comments I've received on this subject, because I consulted those veterans.

“Post-release training would be great for some veterans, but for a lot of us, it seems we did not meet the requirements for release date versus program eligibility.”

Another veteran said, “It's a scam. I applied for many positions which I was qualified for. I never received one call, and at the end of the five years, I received a call from VAC telling me it's been five years and I will be dropped from the program, but 'thank you for your service'.”

Another said, “Why doesn't the CAF give papers to show what civilian skills you have when someone gets out? When I was looking for work after leaving the CAF after 27 years, every place I went to said that because I didn't hold any papers that I could show them saying I was or had taken courses in X, I was not able to get a job. This has to change. Yes, I have heard all the reasons why they don't give us papers to say we are skilled or have taken a course that is equal to the skills that the civilian world wants. It is time that the CAF gets on and catches up to 2023 and stops living in the past. They want to know why they can't keep people in the service. They have to start treating all who have civilian skills like real people and not like crap. This plan works if you are still in your 40s, but the CAF and VAC must start thinking outside of the box. Life doesn't stop at 65.”

Wayne Finn wrote, “If you are talking about priority hire or CAF veterans medically released, that system only works if you know someone, from my experience, and having the PSC looking after vets is wrong. Why? If you read the PSECA and the PSER, a CF veteran is to be deemed a public servant while applying for a job, a.k.a. doing a competition. I found that hiring managers hope the vets don't understand the act so they can BS you. Another part is proper accreditation for what we did in the military. For example, in my trade, we operated 15 different cranes. Because I never had the rights for a 20-tonne crane, I never got the job, but if they used the accreditation part of the act, I had two years to get the ticket for that crane.”

He's available, if anyone wants to talk.

Another veteran said, “I applied for a number of maintenance jobs, some with corrections, Natural Resources and CFB base Edmonton. I never inquired about why I was not selected. I always thought they were picking other priority hires. There are a lot of us in the Edmonton area. After paying for the doctor's note, the mountain of paperwork and a poorly designed website, I didn't have the steam left to jump through any more hoops. Maybe they figured I didn't want it badly enough, but for me it was a matter of pride. Having to go crying to them with my hat in my hand is below me. I would rather suffer and feed my kids beans than beg on my knees for a job.”

As you can see, there are not many happy veterans who have been released who have a lot of good to say about this program or how it is handled. My opinion is that this program—or parts of it—has been running now for many years, yet here we are, still talking about it.

From what I have heard in the past, it appears to have two shortcomings.

One is that the CF isn't doing enough in a timely fashion for veterans who are being released when it comes to retraining veterans prior to release, and, two, in paperwork as to what they are qualified for on civilian street. The CF needs to ensure we have the proper paperwork required to prove it, as the government's civil service hiring practices are not being monitored enough to ensure they are following hiring practices for veterans, who don't see any checks and balances in place to ensure the applications are being looked at properly for veterans—

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Mr. Davis—

[Harold Davis]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Mr. Davis, you're right on time. Thank you very much.

Also, congratulations. We can see how proud you are to show your recognitions, and thank you for your service too.

Mr. Tremblay, before inviting you to speak for the next five minutes, the entire committee congratulates you on your excellent achievement last week. You know what I am talking about, even if the public isn't aware.

[Alexandre Tremblay, Chief Executive Officer, Safety and Health, Prévactions]

Good evening, everyone.

My name is Alexandre Tremblay and I am the chief executive officer of the Prévactions group, which includes the Webex digital agency and Prévactions, a firm specializing in occupational health and safety.

I would like to talk a bit about my career. I have always been in the military system. At the age of 12, I joined the cadets. At 16, I became a reservist in the Canadian Armed Forces, and I studied policing. I left the Canadian Armed Forces temporarily in about 2016, before rejoining the Régiment du Saguenay, where I continued my career until March 2022.

In civilian life, I was always attracted to policing. My father was a police officer and my brothers and uncles were soldiers, so this was something I was always interested in. It was important for me that this be part of my everyday life. At the same time, the army also helped me enormously.

In 2001, when I entered the army, I very much liked the values it instilled in us. It taught us to become leaders, because, basically, I think the first job of the Canadian Armed Forces is to train people to become good citizens. That is something I have always instilled. In 2006, I went to do my chef course, and from the end of 2006 to 2008, I worked full-time providing training at the Land Force Quebec Area Training Centre. At the time, it was called LFQA TC; now it is 2 Cdn Div TC, the 2nd Canadian Division Training Centre.

In 2008, I left the Canadian Armed Forces to become a police office with the Sûreté du Québec. I was transferred to Maniwaki. At that time, I was in the Supplementary Reserve, because I still missed it a bit. Being a soldier provides a feeling of pride and offers a lot in personal terms.

Then, in 2013, I left the police and started a career in occupational health and safety prevention. I have had a lot of problems and Mr. Davis is entirely correct in saying that it is extremely difficult to have the skills and training acquired in the military recognized in civilian life. So I had to do a lot of things over and take a lot of courses over at university. There were times when I could have given up, but I kept working toward my goal.

In 2016, I started wanting to become an entrepreneur. When I returned to the Régiment du Saguenay as a reservist, I went to finish my sergeant's course, and then my corporal's course, and so I became an infantry warrant officer in 2019.

Starting in 2019, the COVID‑19 pandemic hit. I was transferred to the Territorial Battalion Group to participate in the operation carried out in seniors' residences, as a deputy commander of an infantry platoon.

On the entrepreneurial front, all the experience I had amassed in the army helped me enormously in becoming an entrepreneur. I think that people could easily be helped to develop as entrepreneurs in the Canadian Armed Forces, because the qualities and training we acquire in the army, in themselves, enable us to become good entrepreneurs. I know people who are doing well in the business world.

I launched my businesses in 2020 after my time in the territorial battalion group. I now have three businesses, including Michel Larouche Consultants RH inc. At the provincial level, with Prévactions, I have many clients outside of Quebec. We currently have about 21 employees.

I see that I've run out of time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

You are correct, Mr. Tremblay. Thank you for your comments. It's clear that there is a strong military tradition in your family and I'd like to thank you for everything you're doing.

We will now ask the two witnesses a few questions.

I would like to start with the first vice-chair of the committee, Mr. Blake Richards, for six minutes.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Thank you.

I have questions for both of you. Thank you for your presentations.

I'll start with you, Monsieur Tremblay.

You mentioned starting some businesses. I don't think you mentioned—at least, I didn't catch anything on it—any support, help or assistance you got, or programs available to you through Veterans Affairs in order to run down that road.

Was that something made available to you? Were there programs or services made available to you that encouraged you and helped you become an entrepreneur or start a business, as a veteran?

[Alexandre Tremblay]

I was a reservist at the end of my career. In the reserve, we're hearing a lot less about programs for veterans. After leaving the reserve officially in March 2022, I began to hear a bit more about these programs. Prior to that, however, I had not heard much about it, if at all. I arranged my training myself.

It's important to point out that as reservists, we often have a civilian career, but are nevertheless very much involved from the military standpoint. I spent an average of three or four days a week at the reserve, in spite of my civilian job and my other civilian obligations. Nevertheless there are lots of full-time reservists.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Thank you.

I think that might identify a gap and something that perhaps we should explore as a committee and possibly make recommendations on. I think it is important that whatever path a veteran looks to in order to move on—whether gaining employment or starting a business, which is a great way to move on to the next chapter of your life—there should be things there and programs in place to help encourage and assist with that, in whatever way Veterans Affairs can. I'm glad you were able to highlight that.

Mr. Davis, I have some questions for you, specifically on some of the programs and things.

However, while you're here, I also want to take the opportunity to let you speak to an issue that I'm sure you would have liked to speak to, but you had five minutes. You wanted to talk about the subject matter at hand as a representative of the Persian Gulf veterans association. I know you guys have long fought for the recognition many other veterans have, which is to see your service recognized as wartime service.

I want to let you speak to that quickly, if you'd like to, and tell us what you're fighting for and why it's so important.

[Harold Davis]

Thank you very much.

We are the Persian Gulf Veterans of Canada. There are approximately 5,000 of us. We are trying to get recognition for our wartime service during the Persian Gulf war. That was over 32 years ago. Until this day, we are still not recognized for the service during the actual war. The liberation of a country was what we helped in doing.

Nobody is really listening within the government. We're trying our best to get the recognition we deserve for that. Along with that there are different benefits, of course, and some of them are for families of members. It's just that nobody understands what a veteran goes through if you haven't really served outside the country.

You've got the former country of Yugoslavia. You've got Afghanistan. You've got the Persian Gulf and many other very dangerous missions that went on out there.

The recognition is not forthcoming in the proper way. Persian Gulf veterans are recognized as special duty area veterans, yet we served in a war. Korean War veterans were recognized as special duty area veterans at that time, and it took them 30 years to receive recognition for their war service.

Today we are hitting 32 years as of Wednesday of next week, and we still haven't been recognized for proper service. The only outfit in Canada that is actually recognizing us for our service is the Kuwaiti embassy. It recognizes us every year. It gives us these medals that are on this side for our service there, which we're not allowed to wear on our left side. If you understand military service, you'll understand that when you get a medal from a different country that recognizes you for your service and you can't wear it with your other medals, you'll know what that does to a lot of veterans mentally.

You wouldn't believe some of the stories I've heard from some of the veterans who served in the Persian Gulf and how not being recognized for what they actually did has affected them mentally. They have medical problems now just like everybody else, but many of them stem from their service in the Persian Gulf. We're not recognized for medical issues, such as Gulf War illness. Other countries recognize it; Canada doesn't recognize Gulf War illness. We've got veterans out there who are paying with their own money to go and get help in the United States.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

I'm really saddened to hear that. I know how difficult it must be to have to fight for something that should be recognized and should be there, and for what goes with that. Thank you for fighting on behalf of your fellow veterans to see that happen. Please keep up the fight.

[Harold Davis]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Richards.

We'll now go to the web and Mr. Wilson Miao for six minutes or less, please.

[Wilson Miao, Liberal, Richmond Centre, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to our witnesses for being here today.

Definitely, we all recognize the work you have done for our country. Thank you to both of you for serving and allowing us to enjoy the Canada we have today.

I would like to address my first question to Mr. Davis.

Through your experience in serving and working with the veteran communities, what kind of support do you feel veterans need the most after their release that would better help facilitate the transition to their civilian employment?

[Harold Davis]

Thank you for your support, sir.

From what I've heard from my veterans—I'm calling them “my” veterans just because that's who I talk with a lot—they are not really getting the outfits to listen. I'm talking about VAC and I'm talking about the military.

You've got two different releases. You've got your medical release and you've got your normal release. When the medical release happens, that should be automatically kicked over to VAC. Let VAC start with all the medical requirements, the doctor's notes and stuff like that. When they get out from the regular service....

Now, I know that earlier you had a bunch of outfits that are helping veterans. Thank them very much for me, but the veterans I've talked to were never told about them. When I got out in 2009 medically, I went through all the seminars and everything else. Nobody told me about Helmets to Hardhats. I'm not even sure if they were around back then. There were outfits out there that we didn't hear about. I never heard about any of them when I got out.

Fortunately, again, I was lucky. Well, you can call it lucky or not, but I was a medical release. I had to do all my retraining package myself. I had to contact them and do all the footwork myself. Nobody was there holding my hand. I had to learn it all and do it myself. I lucked out, because I'm like a dog with a bone: I'll go after it and keep at it until I get the answers I want.

Some veterans out there are getting the help they need, but others are just walking out the door. When I hear about them, that's when I call VAC and say, “I have a veteran here who's almost homeless. He needs help.” When they call, they're not getting a lot of what they should be getting. They're not getting the people who will actually help them.

[Wilson Miao, Liberal, Richmond Centre, BC]

Thank you very much for sharing that with us.

What recommendation do you have or what do you feel we absolutely should include as part of the national strategy for veterans employment in this case? From your comments, we definitely need to provide more resources and support prior to their release.

Maybe you can share with us your recommendation.

[Harold Davis]

My recommendation is that there must be checks and balances. When you turn around and tell a veteran that they can do a priority hiring and stuff like that within the government.... I went through all of that. I went through the priority hiring. I lucked out—like I said, I'm a dog with a bone—but take the guys I mentioned in my opening statement: It didn't work for them. The civilian side is not looking at, yes, this is a veteran, and he's a priority hire.

After I got into the civil service side at Shared Services and stuff, I heard comments like, “Oh. You're a priority hire.” Yeah? “Well, I had a friend who put in for that job too.”

That wasn't my problem. I'd already done 30 years serving all over my country, and that was supposed to be my country giving back to me a little bit. They're not doing it the way they should be doing it. Nobody's watching the hiring practices that are going on.

When it came time for me to qualify to be a computer network analyst, I had all the courses but I never had that piece of paper that said I had a computer science degree. Luckily, the guy who hired me said, “I don't care. I want you to work for me because you have the training”, but that was one in probably 25 people who would go out on a limb. He actually had to fight for me to do that.

Then, when it came time for the security clearance, I didn't understand that the military security clearance and the civilian security clearance, although they're all done by most of the same people in the RCMP, don't roll over. I had already carried a “secret” security clearance within the military, but I had to wait another four months for them to do a security clearance check so that I could get another “secret” clearance.

Stuff like that is not helping a veteran when he's trying to get a job to put food on his table for him and his family.

[Wilson Miao, Liberal, Richmond Centre, BC]

Thank you for sharing that.

Mr. Chair, do I have more time?

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

You have one more minute.