Veterans Affairs Committee on Oct. 26th, 2023

[Nicole Langlois]

To see what we just went through, either when I was serving with the UN...so they know. We needed to have a decompression, but it wasn't available for us at that time. I didn't even know there was...so why would I? I didn't know who to ask the question to, in order to call for help on that.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Well, that makes a lot of sense. If you don't know what the services are, it's very hard to access them. Of course, if they had done that while you were serving, things would have been well documented and made a lot easier for you when you got to VAC.

In terms of having available veteran services that specifically target female veterans, as a veteran, what services do you think would be helpful that we don't have now?

[Nicole Langlois]

I'm getting help, so I'm trying to think of.... They need to have the right counsellors who understand the combat veteran, or the non-combat veteran. Psychologists need to help and have groups of like-minded people who have been through what I've been through....

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I think that's an excellent answer. Thank you for that.

I want to say, in closing, that your endurance has been impressive. That's to all the witnesses today. I think it's a real testament to your strength. What I'm very sad about is this: When you were being stronger than most people ever have to be, you were being told the exact opposite.

Thank you for being here and explaining that to us, so we can better serve veterans.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much.

I know Ms. Langlois has to go, so I'd like to thank her on behalf of the members of the committee—and myself.

Thank you, Ms. Langlois, for coming to meet us at the committee.

The meeting is not over. We're going to continue. I'd like to go to—

[Nicole Langlois]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Have a good meeting.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

It's my pleasure. Thank you. Have a good trip back.

I'd like to invite Mr. Fraser Tolmie for five minutes.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Thank you.

As you're leaving, Nicole, I want to let you know that when you talked about pride, it was the bravest thing I've ever heard said in this committee. I know what that's like, and I appreciate your sharing that.

Dr. Aiken, there are a couple of questions I'd like to ask you.

In your opening statement, you mentioned SHARP training. It was in the eighties and nineties. I received it in the early 2000s.

For clarification, what I'd like to know is this: Are you saying it's outdated? Has it not been updated to reflect today's culture, or were you just referring to what you went through when you were going through your training?

[Dr. Alice Aiken]

This was the first iteration of SHARP training. Several of my friends were pulled in to teach it. It was developed at that time. I am certain it's been upgraded since then—at least, I would hope it has been.

I don't think any of the messaging was bad. I think we just have a better understanding now. What was very bad was how people reacted to it. They would typically have young female officers teach a room entirely of men who made sexualized or racist comments while they were there. It was so counterintuitive to how it should have been done at the time.

I would hope that by the time you received your training, it was better, and that people were more tolerant, because when it started, it was seen as a joke.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Thank you for that clarification. I appreciate that.

A couple of other statements you made were that you were proud of the skills you learned—your leadership skills—and of what the military taught you. What we find is there is a pivotal moment in the life of someone who is a veteran when they're upset because Veterans Affairs doesn't treat them the same way, and it tarnishes their military career. Could you expand on that or share a bit of insight with regard to your personal testimony?

[Dr. Alice Aiken]

Yes. I would say that when I released from service I did so for several reasons. They weren't going to post my husband and me together. I had a good job opportunity on the outside. There were a number of reasons for my releasing.

Despite women being treated differently, and overtly so, I still got out with an overwhelming sense that I'm super proud that I served, and I will tell you that still, to this day, but then you get into the Veterans Affairs cycle that just takes years and years. I had two documented accidents, and they're asking me all these ridiculous questions all the time. I keep going back: “No, no, no, we need a statement from an orthopaedic surgeon.” You have three of them; why do you need another one...? What are we doing here?

I had self-efficacy in the health system, and I kept getting calls from my former patients in the military who were beside themselves, just crying and saying, “I don't know how to deal with this system. I don't know what to do.” These were people who had served in long and distinguished careers, illustrious careers, and were basically thrown by the wayside.

I will say that I think things got somewhat better when Walt Natynczyk was in as the deputy minister, because he got it, but I agree with my colleague, Brigitte, that still a lot of the people working there are not female veterans. They're male veterans, and women's service is still seen as less. It still is. Nobody questions my husband about how he was a veteran, but they'll say to me, “Oh, were you really a veteran?”

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Yes, and we covered this in our last meeting. I asked the question: Should there be more veterans serving in Veterans Affairs, because they understand? We're going from a military service where things are organized and structured to a civilian organization that takes over your files. Then you're treated like an insurance claim, and you have to prove everything. Would you agree with that?

[Dr. Alice Aiken]

Well, it is an insurance company, so yes, I would.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Dr. Alice Aiken]

Yes, I definitely would agree with that.

I will say that I was actually on a committee for Veterans Affairs in 2006-07. It was to look at seriously injured veterans. It was chaired by Bruce Henwood. I'm sure that name is familiar to all of you. There were no veterans working at Veterans Affairs at that time, and that was one of our main recommendations.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Thank you.

I know that I have very little time.

Ms. Laverdure, I just wanted to know, was it 433 or 425 that you were serving with in Bagotville?

[Brigitte Laverdure]

It was 425.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Okay. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much.

Now I would like to invite the Honourable Carolyn Bennett to take her five minutes.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, Toronto—St. Paul's, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd also like to thank you for your excellent recommendation for training on trauma for all members of our committee, so that witnesses feel safer.

I think it's very wonderful, what you've done to make sure that never again do our people feel ignored or feel that a question was inappropriate. For all of us, how to do better on that, I think, will make this committee a much better place.

I too want to thank all the witnesses, not only for your service but for your courage and your commitment to doing better. I think this is what we need to do. We really need your advice in terms of the recommendations that should be in this report.

I believe that, for Ms. Laverdure, the recommendations will focus on support for LGBTQ2S rights.

Are there recommendations that you think would help better serve the community that you received the award for supporting? That usually means that they needed your support because they weren't getting it in other places.

I would love to know what you think could be done differently for the women who identify in that community, and then I can shut up.

Dr. Aiken, I love the idea that you and your husband, both veterans, are already doing a live trial as to what is different. I would love it if you would just tell us if the men are getting the same number of stupid questions. Is there a gender difference?

Then again, in all the scholarly work that you've done and with CIMVHR.... It looks like there are really good articles in the journal at CIMVHR about gender difference or women vets. Maybe some of the members of the committee would be interested to read them.

I was surprised to find that this really good journal wasn't on PubMed. How can we get it, so that someone who maybe doesn't even know the journal exists could find the really good work being done there when they're searching a topic?

Are there certain articles that you think should be part of our report in terms of the experience of women veterans and their families, their perinatal experience and all of the things that we know have to be there?

I'd love it if you both would tell us what you would want to see in the recommendations in terms of making sure that people are treated properly and not cross-examined about something that is patently clear.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

You have one minute each, please, to try to answer the question.

Let's start with Madame Laverdure.

[Brigitte Laverdure]

For the LGBTQ2+ veterans or those still serving, I would think that the government would have to put in a support group and let these people know there are groups that exist.

For the veterans, it will be pretty hard to go to these people, because they were hurt so badly. They went and got what they were capable of getting at Veterans Affairs, but in their service, whether it's when they joined or if they're still serving, they would have to be supported in a way that if they need anything, they will be supported.

That's basically the recommendation I would suggest.

[Dr. Alice Aiken]

I would say that my husband probably was asked as many ridiculous questions as I was. The difference is that I'm really mouthy, and he spent longer in the military and really believed the system would take care of him.

In the military you actually get great medical care. People in the military believe the system will take care of them, so when they come out, they're not always their own best advocates, and that is really problematic. Whether it's male, female or LGBTQ, people coming out of the military expect the system to take care of them, and Veterans Affairs does not act like that. It doesn't act like the military medical system, and that's something that could really help.

As for the journal, we started it in 2015. It is indexed on some sites, and we've been trying to get it indexed on PubMed.

If you go to the CIMVHR website, it's fully open access. You can access all the articles there and search anything you like. I would suggest that there are some fantastic articles in there that would help the committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much.

Members of the committee, we have only eight minutes left. We can go four minutes and four minutes, or we can have two for each party. If you don't mind, we'll go two minutes and two minutes.

Okay, that's great.

I'd like to invite Mr. Dowdall for two minutes, please.

[Terry Dowdall, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, but I'm going to cede my time to my colleague here, who really wants to ask some questions.