Veterans Affairs Committee on Nov. 7th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Just a second, on the point of order.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

The motion I moved is not debatable and must go straight to a vote.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

I know. That's why I'm asking for it. You're going to have to vote on that. It's up to you, the members of the committee—

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

To be clear, now we'll have two votes, rather than the one we could have had immediately to vote on the motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

We're going to take the vote on adjournment of debate on this motion.

(Motion negatived: nays 6; yeas 5)

I have as a question....

Go ahead, Mr. Casey.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

The motion we have before us proposes three things: The first is an order for production of documents, the second is that there be a report made to the House, and the third is an invitation to two other witnesses.

With respect to the first paragraph, I believe something should be included there to ensure we are not seeking things that are protected by cabinet confidentiality.

With respect to the second paragraph, I believe it to be premature. In my view, we would be prejudging what's in the documents and we would be prejudging the testimony of the ministers to immediately report to the House that we have reached a conclusion with respect to this matter, so I'd like to propose an amendment to the motion: I move that the second paragraph of the motion be deleted.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Casey.

An amendment motion has been introduced to delete the second paragraph of the motion introduced by Mr. Desilets.

Who wants to debate it?

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Mr. Chair, I would like to say something.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

The floor is yours.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

The proposed amendment is utterly unacceptable.

I understand that the motion is long, but this is where we stand. We have to find a solution to this conflict, and it isn't complicated: the government must reverse its decision.

The authorities that we have solicited thus far have given us an acceptable response. I therefore want to retain the second paragraph.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Desilets.

As I see no other speakers, we will proceed to the vote on Mr. Casey's amendment.

(Amendment negatived: nays 6; yeas 5)

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

So we come back to the motion.

Are there any comments? No? Then we will go to the vote.

(Motion agreed to: yeas 6; nays 5)

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Mr. Desilets, is a date specified in the motion so instructions can be given to the clerk? I don't have a motion before me.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

All right, excellent.

Colleagues, it is now 5:50 p.m. As we began this meeting at 4:24 p.m., we may continue until 6:24 p.m. I want to be sure that the technical team is indeed in place. And we will suspend for five minutes at most so we can prepare to receive our next witnesses.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

We will resume.

For the second hour, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on Monday, October 3, 2022, the committee is resuming its study on the experience of women veterans.

I wish to inform the members of the committee that the connection tests were successfully completed.

Since we will be discussing our study on the experience of women veterans, it is appropriate to provide a trigger warning, especially in the presence of veterans. I therefore want to inform you that this meeting could be triggering to people who are here and to viewers. We therefore wish to inform you of that fact.

Allow me to greet our guests.

Our witnesses for the second hour are, from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, Ms. Jennifer Ebert, assistant commissioner and commanding officer of B division, by video conference; Ms. DeAnna Hill, assistant commissioner, commanding officer of J division, by video conference; Ms. Nadine Huggins, chief human resources officer; and Ms. Joanne Rigon, executive director, executive liaison officer, national compensation services, human resources.

Nadine Huggins will present opening remarks on behalf of the RCMP.

Madame Huggins, you have five minutes for your opening statement. Please go ahead.

[Nadine Huggins, Chief Human Resources Officer, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

Good afternoon.

Mr. Chair and members of the committee, thank you for inviting me to join you today.

The Commissioner of the Royal Canadian Mountain Police, Michael Duheme, is unable to be here today as a result of prior commitments, but I am pleased to be able to address the committee on his behalf.

It is a very important week of remembrance, and first I would like to acknowledge and thank all of those who have served and continue to serve in uniform.

I am Nadine Huggins, and as the senior assistant deputy minister responsible for human resources at the RCMP since May 1, 2022, I am keenly aware of the important work our members perform, often at personal risk, while serving communities and keeping Canadians safe.

Since 2020, I have been leading the development of our people management modernization efforts, along with the creation of our people strategy and our Vision150 equity, accountability and trust action plan and, most recently, the equity, diversity and inclusion strategy for the RCMP. These programs are shifting mindsets, values and behaviours in support of the commissioner’s commitment to a modern, inclusive and trusted RCMP.

I would respectfully note that, as I am in Ottawa, I am speaking from the traditional unceded lands of the Anishinabe nation.

We all work in different places, and, consequently, you may be speaking from the territory of another Indigenous nation.

I would like you to take a moment to reflect on and acknowledge the territory from which you are working.

I really welcome the opportunity to speak with you about the experience of RCMP women veterans, and I’d like to acknowledge proud and trailblazing women such as our honourable and former commissioner Beverley Busson, who testified earlier, and our recently retired Brenda Lucki, as well as women who continue to serve today in the RCMP, such as the commanding officers who are joining us today.

First and foremost, transforming workplace culture is a priority for the RCMP, including instilling a healthy management culture. Our vision is for a healthy, inclusive and trusted RCMP that our employees, stakeholders, partners and the communities we serve expect us to be and deserve us to be.

Realizing this vision will ultimately enable the RCMP to achieve operational excellence.

The RCMP has undertaken a number of initiatives that address women's unique experiences or concerns in the organization, as well as when they leave the uniform behind to pursue new challenges.

These initiatives target specifically our kit, equipment and clothing; fitness assessments; and developing future leadership that will aid efforts to enhance the recruitment, retention and transition experience of women in our organization.

These efforts have been guided by a body of knowledge about the factors that limit women's willingness to pursue a policing career, similar to those that you would have heard about from the armed forces, and the understanding that many of these same factors result in unsatisfactory attrition and retention rates and poor discharge experiences.

The RCMP recognizes that the barrier to attracting female candidates to policing, aside from the inherent risk of the job, is the culture.

The RCMP is moving deliberately beyond the traditional recruitment response and looking to challenge our practices from an equity perspective. We understand that often the main barrier to engaging talent from diverse populations is the behaviour of the organization itself. The challenge is not to market better but rather to increase the RCMP's capacity to be an employer of choice.

Women and other equity-seeking groups moving within and out of the RCMP and transitioning to civilian life can expect member-centric, personalized and integrated services. We intend to support their needs. To this end, we continue to work with our stakeholders to achieve this.

The RCMP is building internal capacity to work in close collaboration with Veterans Affairs to better position the organization and our retired members.

We've implemented gender-based analysis plus throughout our policies and procedures, as well as in the decisions we take around kit, clothing, and other elements.

The RCMP continues to make inroads as we move to ensure that we are an employer of choice, not just for our members in uniform but also for all of our employees.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much, Ms. Huggins, for your opening statement.

We're only going to have one round of questions. It will be for six minutes each in order to finish around 6:30.

I invite Mr. Fraser Tolmie to begin. You have six minutes, please.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you to our guests for being here today.

In preparing for this meeting, we get a bit of background information. In this committee, we've heard a lot of valuable information about the experiences of female Canadian Armed Forces veterans. I'm pleased to get the opportunity to speak with you today, because the RCMP Depot is in Regina, which just borders my riding. I have some close friends there and I'm very excited to have you here.

Finding information on the specific experiences of female RCMP members is not that simple. Even academic studies often noted that information on the experiences of RCMP women veterans was simply not found. With this lack of research and information, one of the challenges we are facing when it comes to RCMP veterans is that there's just not a lot of information, so to have you here today is important.

Is that something that should go into our report—the lack of information?

[Nadine Huggins]

I will start, and then maybe I'll hand it over to Jennifer Ebert or to DeAnna Hill to supplement.

There's always value in encouraging an evidence base for the work that any of our organizations do to ensure that we're being more equitable and inclusive. While we are diligent in our practical approaches, having fundamental research in the area of women veterans can only be beneficial.

Jennifer Ebert or DeAnna Hill, would either of you like to supplement that answer?

[Jennifer Ebert, Assistant Commissioner, Commanding Officer, B Division, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

I can speak on that.

It's Jennifer Ebert. Thank you for having me, Chair.

I think it's important to have an evidence-based approach and to understand that there are vast differences due to the geography and the type of work that RCMP officers do, especially female police officers. I have been in for 26 years. I've been in six provinces and nine postings, all contract policing, and I'm a commanding officer, so I have a very specific view, whereas my colleague DeAnna Hill would have a different view, as would other female officers across the country. That's why I think it's incredibly important to have that evidence base: It's because my experience isn't necessarily others' experiences, since I've obviously been quite successful as an assistant commissioner and a commanding officer for the past six years.

I'll hand it over to DeAnna, my colleague.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

I appreciate that.

Ms. Ebert, one of the things I've noticed, being in Moose Jaw, is that Sylvie Bourassa-Muise was the Depot commander, so we've seen a projection and we've seen our female veterans being able to move up while they're in the RCMP.

While I have your attention, one of the questions I have is this. We've talked about equipment challenges for those who are in the CAF. Is that something female veterans in the RCMP and serving police officers experience as well?

[Nadine Huggins]

I can start and then transfer....

Jen, did you want to start with that?

[Jennifer Ebert]

I can start with that. Sure.

There are certainly challenges specific to kit and clothing in relation to female police officers. It has changed a lot over the past several years through the use of a GBA+ lens in the way we fit our kit. There have been a lot of changes to the dress and deportment manual within the RCMP, including reducing gender requirements and allowing males and females—all genders of police officers—to pick the kit that is best suited to them. I traditionally fit better into men's pants than I did into what were traditionally women's pants. The changes allow fluidity in the way that we're handling kit and clothing now. They allow for that.

In relation to some of our kit and clothing, we're still working to make it more comfortable for all of our police officers, but there are certainly unique challenges with women in kit and clothing.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Are those changes because of physical trauma that is put in place because of wearing that equipment, or is it just comfort? That can be an issue as well, but is there physical trauma?

If someone's in the CAF, they're wearing a heavy 60-pound pack. It's a bit different in the RCMP, but there are belts and guns and other things that people in the RCMP use.

Is there anything that you can share about that?