Veterans Affairs Committee on Nov. 7th, 2023

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much for your remarks.

We will now go to a second and final round of questions.

I will unfortunately have to stop the last two. So we will have four interventions, two of five minutes each and two of two and a half minutes.

With that, I invite Mr. Paul-Hus to take the floor for the next five minutes.

Go ahead, Mr. Paul-Hus.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have five minutes to wrap this all up, whereas we are facing a potential public affairs management scandal.

We're dealing with a private business that can't fight a government. That business is the victim of a decision that makes no sense. However, our committee has a responsibility to raise this issue and move it forward.

It's clear from the testimony we've heard that the department's decision was baseless, particularly since the information that led to that decision—I'm referring to the survey—was completely demolished by Leger Marketing. Jean-Marc Léger completely demolished the survey as absolutely worthless.

I'm a veteran and I support your intervention and your request. I know that things were done based on rules that make no sense.

In addition, and I'm attesting to it here, I attended a meeting of this committee last week at which the Minister of Canadian Heritage, Ms. St‑Onge, denied all responsibility completely out of hand. I was flabbergasted. I couldn't believe it. I hope she has taken note since then and studied the file.

Furthermore, as a Quebecker—we are all Quebeckers here—I want to point out the role played by the former Minister of Canadian Heritage, Mr. Rodriguez, who signed off on the change. So he's part of the equation, and Ms. St‑Onge is aware of nothing.

I want to point out to the committee that it's important to emphasize this because this is the first responsibility of ministers.

Lastly, I would like to go back to the decision. The entire situation is compromised. The competition process clearly wasn't followed.

Mr. Le Moine and Mr. Chupin, you told us that, under competition rules, a minister may not reverse a jury's selection. Can you show me the exact line in the rules that can confirm that?

Let's get this straight: I believe we're dealing with a kind of outright scandal, both for your business and for the process in Canada.

[François Le Moine]

Do you want to have the actual documents?

You have to understand that, in this case, the Department of Canadian Heritage brought its expertise to the table and that it appears everywhere in the documents, which is normal, because—

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

The fact that the minister or government changes the jury's decision—

[François Le Moine]

That information appears in the first paragraph of the document entitled, “Design Competition—Request for Proposals, Submission Requirements”. That's in the introduction.

The document includes what all the teams must know about the requirements for submission, deadlines, payments and jury evaluation, as well as information on the resulting contract for the winning team. One clearly understands that the winning team is selected by the jury.

So it's absolutely clear when you read the document that there was no way in which to eliminate the winning team.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

I'm speaking to Team Daoust, but your lawyer and Mr. Chupin may respond. I have a question, but I know it will be hard to answer.

Why was the other team selected?

Do you have an idea of the real reasons why the government and ministers selected the other project in such a cavalier manner?

[Renée Daoust]

No, I have no idea.

In one way, that's not the case we're making. There's a procedural flaw in the process, and that's what we want to address.

Rules had been established and they weren't obeyed. That's really what we want to condemn and decry.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Has any one of you heard that there might be some sort of relationship with the winning team, such as a friend who knows a friend of a friend who might know something?

Do you think it could be that type of thing?

[Renée Daoust]

We're absolutely unaware of that.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Having said that, I don't want to put you in delicate position.

I think the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs has done a good job, but we'll have to go even further.

There really was a serious procedural flaw in this Canadian process, and it must not go unaddressed. Team Daoust doesn't have the resources to conduct a legal battle against the Government of Canada. Consequently, it's up to us elected members to do our duty and help it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much, Mr. Paul-Hus.

You have 30 seconds left, but I'm going to ask Mr. May to take the floor for five minutes.

[Bryan May, Liberal, Cambridge, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to all of the witnesses for being here with us today.

I believe it was Mr. Richards, when the ministers were here, who conveyed our hope that we can get this monument built as quickly as possible, and I think we are hearing from veterans across the country that this is the priority and that it is taking far too long.

We had the minister here. The minister made it very clear—both the ministers—that on this issue.... She said that she was listening to veterans, and that was her top priority.

I'm wondering if the folks from Daoust can maybe convey what their top priority is with this project.

[Renée Daoust]

The top priority with this project is to respond to what was asked in the formalization of the monument to commemorate the Canadian mission in Afghanistan.

[Bryan May, Liberal, Cambridge, ON]

So—

[Renée Daoust]

If I may say so....

[Bryan May, Liberal, Cambridge, ON]

Continue. I'm sorry.

[Renée Daoust]

The idea is that we got rules and got the documents that were describing them. We've followed them. As we're saying, the veterans' opinion is very, very important. It was provided through the documents, because they were consulted prior to the redaction of these documents. They were consulted prior to that; it's written in the documents. They were also consulted through a survey. I would say that in the third instance, what we did was connect with Madame Arbour to understand what everyone went through, meaning the civil society plus the veterans. This is what we wanted to reflect in the monument that we conceptualized.

[Bryan May, Liberal, Cambridge, ON]

Then it's the process that is critical in this, not necessarily the sentiment of the veterans, as a top priority.

I'm short on time here. However, I do think that it is very critical to recognize that....

You mentioned earlier that you would not have participated if you had known that there was a survey. Did I hear you correctly in saying that?

[Renée Daoust]

No, no. You heard me wrong—

[Bryan May, Liberal, Cambridge, ON]

Can you maybe clarify that—

[Renée Daoust]

Yes, for sure.

In every competition—

[Bryan May, Liberal, Cambridge, ON]

What I heard through one of the other individuals was that if there was a survey, you would maybe not have participated in this.

[Renée Daoust]

No. What I said was that if the survey was to change the jury's decision or was to become the priority, we would not have participated, because these are not the rules of the game.

Let me answer your first question. The monument is called Le Monument commémoratif national de la mission du Canada en Afghanistan. This is what we had to respond to. There was a brief, which was well done. We responded to that, which included, of course, consultation amongst the veterans and so on, so this is a whole—

[Bryan May, Liberal, Cambridge, ON]

I'm sorry. I have to move on quickly because I know I'm running short on time.

I do have an important question here for Mr. Jean-Pierre Chupin.

You mentioned that in the entire world, there is not an example of this. I'm wondering, sir, if you know about the process of the Holocaust museum, the first process of the Holocaust museum in Berlin. Are you familiar with that?