Evidence of meeting #42 for Veterans Affairs in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was civilian.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Braedon Clark Liberal Sackville—Bedford—Preston, NS
I'm a former member of the provincial legislature. I know the chair is as well, so you're preaching to the choir on that. I think that's a really important topic: transferability.
Liberal
Braedon Clark Liberal Sackville—Bedford—Preston, NS
If you have one skill in one province, it should be very easy to port that.
Mr. Walker, I'll just touch on a couple of things with you in the two minutes I have here.
In your opening comments, you touched on some major companies in other allied nations. I think you mentioned Raytheon Australia, where one-third of the people employed are veterans. You also mentioned that we don't have that data accessible in Canada. In those other countries, do those things happen organically? Are they required? Do you know how they get to that level of participation, which is really high?
Director, Veteran Business Network Institute
In the United States, all contractors are supposed to state how many veterans they hire. They have to, and it's relatively easy to do. There's also the 3% of all small and medium-sized businesses that have to be veteran—military and service-disabled. It increases the number of veterans in the defence supply chain with just those two small programs and ends up being massive. In my previous testimony to the House of Commons, I think I reported that something like $80 billion goes into veteran-owned small and medium-sized businesses in American defence because of that rule in particular.
Yes, other countries track it. Canada doesn't. I guess whatever you track is what's important to you, so companies don't see a reason to do it. There's a huge opportunity here, I would think, to include that in terms of reporting on contracts. That way you can have a better understanding of how much engagement we're having with it.
Liberal
Braedon Clark Liberal Sackville—Bedford—Preston, NS
In about 20 seconds—I know I'm putting you on the spot here—you touched on the defence industry. Obviously, we're spending a record amount on defence. Nova Scotia has a huge defence industry. I would assume that this would be an area of low-hanging fruit. There are obvious synergies and skill transfers. That's fair to say, I would assume.
Director, Veteran Business Network Institute
Yes. I was hoping it would be a relatively easy one to jump into. I would recommend that.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Marie-France Lalonde
Thank you very much.
Gentlemen, Mrs. DeBellefeuille will address you in French.
I hope you're bilingual, but if unfortunately you haven't mastered our French language, make sure you have the translation in English for your understanding.
Mrs. DeBellefeuille, you have the floor for six minutes.
Claude DeBellefeuille Vallée-du-Haut-Saint-Laurent, BQ
Thank you very much, Madam Chair. You really are a role model. This is the first time I have been given such a fine introduction to ensure that the witnesses understand me properly, so thank you very much.
First, I have to apologize, because this is my second meeting as critic on the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs. Please excuse my questions if they seem to be elementary, but I will learn. I'm a fairly quick learner.
Mr. Walker, I read the 2023 report of the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs entitled “National Strategy for Veterans Employment” and all its recommendations. Today, I understand that we're assessing the gaps between what was requested or recommended to the government in 2023 and what the situation is now. Has there been any progress? If you had to give a grade, would you say that the government has made enough progress? Have there been any improvements following the 2023 report, in which parliamentarians around the table identified gaps and made recommendations?
After that, there was also the 2023‑24 departmental plan, which prioritized a core responsibility, as part of the national strategy, to ensure that veterans have a better transition to civilian life.
Do you think there has been an improvement as a result of the 2023 report and the adoption of the departmental plan?
Director, Veteran Business Network Institute
Without having the metrics in front of me, I think it would be hard for me to say—other than to give my own opinion. First, as discussed in my introduction, I would say that Veterans Affairs has an impact in only a small way on a larger problem that affects the workforce of Canada. It's because there's no actual real skills framework across the country. There is one for university degrees, where there are frameworks that are captured across the country, but for college apprenticeships and everything else, as was already discussed by the other witness, they don't translate between provinces. It's a mishmash of provinces, universities and employers. In that case, in a larger system, it's part of a broken system.
That being said, I think VAC actually has an Agilec contract, where they get a company to help veterans find jobs. They help them write résumés and they help them move forward. From the feedback I've gotten from people who have used that service, it's been quite good. It's helped a lot of people.
It seems as though they're doing a good job in what they can change, but it's part of a larger broken system. I guess that's my feedback.
Vallée-du-Haut-Saint-Laurent, BQ
My understanding is that there are a number of initiatives, but there doesn't seem to be a Canadian discussion table that brings together representatives from all the provinces so that they can, among themselves, make decisions on the recognition of certain skills, which could be transferred to the education sector, whether at CEGEP, for Quebec, or at university.
My understanding is that there are certain initiatives, but there doesn't seem to be a common desire to create a forum for discussion so that the provinces and Veterans Affairs Canada can negotiate. It's a known fact that education is under provincial jurisdiction and that the provinces are therefore essential partners in the national strategy.
Do you think discussions with the provinces are being held in a formal way? Is there a discussion table? Do you think the government is able to mobilize all provincial partners to address the issue of education and reach certain agreements on the recognition of basic skills, for example?
Director, Veteran Business Network Institute
Yes, I think this is part of a larger strategy that I've heard the Prime Minister talk about: how we should be trying to have the same amount of economic movement between the provinces, compared to north and south. There are trade barriers, skills barriers and employment barriers between the provinces that are holding us up across the country. I mean, for everyone, as military members, you move across the country. It's not uncommon that your spouse's work is medical and a nurse or a teacher has to upskill or change their training and skills for every province they work in because there's no translation, for some reason.
Hopefully, as we're dealing with some of these larger problems within the economy, we will try to have everyone on the same common framework, not just for universities but for apprenticeship skills and upskilling. It's important not only for veterans, who are a very small population. It's important when you onboard newcomers into the country and have immigrants joining the workforce. It's important for people who leave the workforce and join, and it's important for people who have to change careers quickly. We have to sort that out going forward.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Marie-France Lalonde
Thank you very much, Mr. Walker. I'm sorry. Our time is up.
We will now start our second round for five minutes with Mr. Tolmie.
Conservative
Fraser Tolmie Conservative Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I'd like to congratulate my colleague from across the aisle who said he went out shooting last week, even if it was just the breeze. I don't believe he hit much, but....
I'd like to thank our witnesses for joining us today. Thank you for coming back, Mr. Cameron and Mr. Walker. I believe you've been on this committee before and we've done some questioning.
Mr. Cameron, I think you have one of the most Scottish names, and I see your Cameron tie. I was just in Scotland. My dad used to call it “the holy land”. I was over there just recently.
I have a couple of questions.
Mr. Walker, I'm going to start with you. We hear in the news about people losing their jobs—500 people, say, or whatever—and then we hear about people getting jobs. Sometimes these jobs are part-time jobs, and people are counted as being employed. Should the government, when measuring veterans and their employment, include pay, skills, contentment and full-time versus part-time work when they're doing their measurements?
Director, Veteran Business Network Institute
Yes. If they don't already do that now, then yes, they should be. Obviously, you want to have as successful a veteran community as possible. If their job is not making enough for them to live, effectively, that would be an issue. That's an important statistic.
Also, if they are working part time, you want to know. A lot of veterans, because of their age bracket when they leave the military, or just because they have pensions, do choose to work part time. Yes, all that information would be important in starting to understand the veteran community. I don't think we have a lot of statistics on the veteran community in Canada, which is an ongoing problem.
Conservative
Fraser Tolmie Conservative Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK
Okay. I have another question for you before I go to Mr. Cameron. You mentioned AI, and a lot of what's been presented today is about key people in key positions and is competency-based. How do we overcome that for veterans who have these life skills and abilities so that they can find meaningful employment and be those key people who are put into key positions?
Director, Veteran Business Network Institute
Hopefully, the technology is going to help people who already know how to do their job well to be able to do it faster. It's like what you've seen in the computer programming world with how these 10x programmers are able to do more with AI. There are key skills, particularly in the defence industry, that veterans would have. Actually, AI and technology should be able to make those veterans 10x veterans in those industries as well.
You have 10x salespeople. You have 10x program managers and project managers, who are able to use technology and AI to do their jobs quite well. I think there are key competencies in security, leadership and probably other aspects to most of the veteran community that, when they match in with AI, would be quite useful.
Director, Veteran Business Network Institute
There are probably larger things to talk about than that.
Conservative
Fraser Tolmie Conservative Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK
I'm sorry. We don't have enough time, but thank you for taking a stab at it.
Mr. Cameron, you said meaningful employment matters and recognition for service matters. Quite often, we see in the U.S. that military service is a vehicle for employment and future employment, and we don't see that as much here in Canada.
Do you feel that Canadians don't recognize veterans as much in future employment when they're looking to recruit and hire?
Veterans Advocate, As an Individual
I think it's getting better. It wasn't so great back in the day, but I do see myself being thanked for service with “thank you”, “how are you doing” and that kind of stuff. I do think that veterans are being recognized better as of late.
Conservative
Fraser Tolmie Conservative Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK
You deserve it, so thank you for your service, gentlemen, and for your time. Thank you.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Marie-France Lalonde
Thank you very much.
We will now have Ms. Royer for five minutes.
Liberal
Zoe Royer Liberal Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
First and foremost, I want to thank our witnesses, Mr. Cameron and Lieutenant-Colonel Walker, for your extraordinary service to Canada, your 26 years and your 20 years.
I know a little bit about that. My husband is a veteran. He served 22 years in the air force, and he was also a military engineer. His last tour was actually in Bosnia, and then he retired. At that time in Canada, I think there was some kind of national movement with human resources companies that were working with municipalities, because they were recognizing the transferable skills that officers from the military had and putting them in areas of municipal management. His second career was in municipal management, but I think it was in recognition of those transferable skills.
My first set of questions will be for Lieutenant-Colonel Walker. I just want to highlight those three points that you made: adopting a national skills framework, veterans being able to use their full benefit, and then defence suppliers using veterans in their hiring practices. I know that the national skills taxonomy from Australia is very new, but they went through a lengthy consultation process.
Can I ask you this? What are the three most important skills that employers often overlook when they are considering a veteran?
Director, Veteran Business Network Institute
It really depends on what industry you're talking about.
I'll narrow it a little to the defence industry. That's growing considerably. They understand the security space quite well. Since so few people serve in the military, it's actually a pretty useful skill. There are a lot of technology companies right now—dual-use companies—that are trying to get into the space and really have no idea what the military does or what capabilities they need. Veterans really understand that space.
In the defence industry, as well, most veterans will understand the compliance requirements you need, such as what kind of security you need internally for your company to keep it safe and in compliance so that it can sell contracts going forward. There are aspects that are quite important for the defence industry holistically.
The veteran community is actually quite diverse. There's a great difference between a general retiring and a master corporal retiring, for example. What I would say, if I focused in holistically on the junior NCOs, for the most part, is that a lot of them are still very young, very motivated, quite creative and typically are trying to get the job done by using quite a bit of initiative. You would usually see those people in a role where they are given a problem that most people would just give up on. They would work through the problem and solve it. A lot of the successful defence veteran-owned businesses in Canada right now are run by ex-sergeants, for example, because they know how to hustle and how to make something out of nothing.
That's not providing a very good answer to your question, but it's a very diverse population. There's a lot of hidden talent in the junior NCO and the senior NCO cohorts.