Debates of Oct. 26th, 1994

Manpower Training

[Some hon. members]

Hear, hear.

[Lucien Bouchard, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Speaking of this, how can the minister expect the present government of Quebec to accept his offers of administrative transfers in the manpower field, of sharing quarters for the same confusing mess in the same building, when this offer was rejected by the previous federalist government?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, perhaps one reason why there may be some confusion is because we have one party in the House on the opposite side which makes it its business to try and create confusion between Quebec and the rest of the country. That is part of the problem we face.

When it comes to strategic initiatives we have said that as soon as the Quebec government replies to our request and specifically says what its priority projects are we will discuss them. We cannot fund all the projects because it would take all the money. We have to share with the rest of the country.

As soon as the Quebec government indicates it is prepared to go ahead with the priorities that were presented by the previous government then we will sit down and negotiate with it.

We understand and fully support the process. By developing these kinds of new, progressive and innovative approaches to the development of social programs, we can bring a much better system to all Canadians, including those in Quebec.

That is why the position of the Parti Quebecois and the Bloc Quebecois-

[Antoine Dubé, Bloc, Lévis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Human Resources Development. We learned from the SQDM, the Quebec labour development corporation, that the minister was aware of the duplication between his youth service project and Quebec's young volunteers program as early as the beginning of February, two months before he launched his program.

Does the minister confirm that federal and Quebec government officials tried without success to harmonize the two programs before the federal government decided to go ahead despite the resulting increase in duplication?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, at noon hour I attended a very interesting event where a youth service project that serves both sides of the Outaouais area and a group of young people who were street kids had come together to start their own business in a recycling plant.

As part of the testimony one young man said that he had been on the streets since he was 11 years old. Because of the youth services project he was now able to get a pay cheque. He was now able to plan to go to school. Much more important, he now believed in himself.

I do not think that young man was concerned about jurisdictional turf wars. He was concerned about the Government of Canada which, in co-operation with the private sector and the local community, was giving him a new chance at life. That is what the program is all about.

[Antoine Dubé, Bloc, Lévis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is again for the Minister of Human Resources Development. Does the minister not admit that his attitude in the youth service matter clearly shows that he is trying to muzzle the Quebec government, when we know that federal officials offered Quebec a seat on the federal pilot project selection board provided that Quebec made a commitment not to criticize the Canadian youth service program publicly?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, the facts of the matter are this. We presented to the province of Quebec, as we did to all provinces, a proposal on a labour and manpower agreement that would offer wide responsibility to all provinces to help set planning priorities for federal human resource expenditures in each of the provinces.

In the case of Quebec the count was close to 60 or 70 per cent of the human resource expenditures in terms of helping engage in that planning.

At this time I have not received a response from the province of Quebec on that proposal. If that response is received, we are prepared to sit down and talk about all the programs. Once the province of Quebec responds we will co-operate with it.

Penitentiaries

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, in 1978 Allan Kinsella murdered 24-year old Kenny Kaplinski by shooting him twice in the head. He was sentenced to life in prison.

In July he was transferred to the Bath penitentiary, in spite of the fact that the Solicitor General received two letters from the Assistant Attorney General of Ontario warning that Kinsella was unsuitable for transfer and likely to attempt escape.

The Solicitor General did not respond to these warnings and on October 19 Kinsella escaped from Bath along with Serge Damien who was serving life for murdering a credit union cashier with a sledge hammer.

Can the Solicitor General explain his negligence in this case, and what does he have to say to the people whose lives have been put at risk by this negligence?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, Mr. Kinsella had been in a medium security institution since 1986. He was transferred to another medium security institution, Bath.

The letters of warning from Mr. Code, the Deputy Assistant Attorney General, were to the effect that Mr. Kinsella should not be transferred to a minimum security institution, specifically Beaver Creek. The advice on Mr. Kinsella was followed by the Correctional Service officials because Mr. Kinsella was not transferred to Beaver Creek or any other minimum security institution.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the Attorney General of Ontario knew more about Bath than the Solicitor General. Not only did his office warn the Solicitor General about Mr. Kinsella, but the Bath medium security prison was medium security in name only. Bath was supposedly upgraded to medium security last May but many of the security features of a medium security facility were not in place, such as adequate lighting, surveillance cameras and double fencing.

Why did the Solicitor General allow murderers like Alex Kinsella and Serge Damien to be transferred to an institution that was incomplete and substandard from a security standpoint?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, before the transfer was carried out, the professional staff of the Correctional Service had formally upgraded Bath to medium security status, after adding additional protection measures. That is the fact, Mr. Speaker.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, a lot of these measures are after the fact, after the horse is out of the barn. Every time there is a problem in his jurisdiction the minister says it is a serious matter, there has been an investigation and steps are being taken, but in fact no action really occurs.

Since the Solicitor General is so fond of investigations, will he submit to an independent public inquiry to examine not only the problems within Corrections Canada but the negligence of the Solicitor General's department itself?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, an independent investigation has been convened, headed by the retired former deputy police chief of the city of Toronto. Under the Corrections and Conditional Release Act that investigation has the status of an investigation under part II of the Inquiries Act.

If the hon. member is serious about this matter he will be happy to hear this news from me.

Communications Security Establishment

[François Langlois, Bloc, Bellechasse, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of National Defence.

On May 25, the Privacy Commissioner confirmed to the Standing Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs that an examination of the operations of the Communications Security Establishment was being carried out. That exercise was to be completed in August. Yesterday, the defence minister alluded to that examination by the Privacy Commissioner.

Considering the recent disclosure of surveillance activities targeting members of the Quebec government, will the minister confirm that he asked the Commissioner to expand the scope of the examination conducted?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, the answer is absolutely no.

[François Langlois, Bloc, Bellechasse, QC]

Mr. Speaker, does the Minister of National Defence not realize that the government cannot be content with a routine examination by the Privacy Commissioner, given the seriousness of claims that CSE apparently spied on members of the Quebec government, and in spite of the fact that the minister is already predicting a positive conclusion to that examination?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I will not repeat the answers I have given in the House. At this moment the privacy commissioner is conducting an examination of CSE. It has been done in the past, it is a matter of routine business and it will conclude shortly.

Young Offenders Act

[Paul Forseth, Reform, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Justice.

Yesterday a youth charged with criminal negligence causing death with a stolen car was sentenced to one year in a youth detention facility. In frustration the judge presiding over the case remarked that politicians, not judges, were the lawmakers. The judge's hands were tied and because of a weak Young Offenders Act the offender walked away with a year.

In view of this case, how many more insupportable decisions does the Minister of Justice need to hear before he will make substantive and not cosmetic changes to the Young Offenders Act?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I am not going to comment on the facts of the case. I will speak to the point generally.

Let me say that the member is himself participating in the work of the justice committee of the House of Commons, which has been engaged for many weeks in hearings with respect to Bill C-37, proposals to amend the Young Offenders Act.

In that capacity the member has heard witnesses who have been before the committee saying that in their view the Young Offenders Act as it exists at present is more than sufficient, if properly administered, to deal with juvenile justice in the country.

The changes in Bill C-37 represent the amendments that the government thinks are appropriate at this time. The member knows we have asked the standing committee to commence, as soon as it finishes with Bill C-37, a comprehensive review of the statute as a whole, crossing the country, listening to experts, speaking to police, principals, parents, and hearing views about other changes that may be appropriate to the act.

The member knows that process is going to be undertaken. Indeed he is going to be part of it. I trust he will come back to the House with responsible recommendations at the end of it.

[Paul Forseth, Reform, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Mr. Speaker, it was quoted this morning that the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police as well as the Canadian Police Association recommended that judges must have access to longer and more appropriate sentences and that 16 and 17 year olds charged with serious crimes should automatically be tried in adult court.

These recommendation do not come from bleeding hearts or social agencies. They come from the men and women who defend our streets.

Will the minister endorse the recommendations of the two associations, or is he going to sit back and listen to the broken record of the professional criminal justice community?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, what we are going to do and what we have done is be responsible and balanced and take into account the views at all ends of the spectrum.

The fact is the hon. member seizes upon the headlines of this morning from the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police. I have two comments. The first is that recently the paper has been full of reports of the testimony of other witnesses before the committee who said precisely the opposite. Obviously views differ. What we have done in Bill C-37 is produced a balanced bill that adjusts and amends the act in the public interest.

The second observation I would make is that I am interested to observe the hon. member's interest in the views of the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police. I remind him it is the same organization that very much supports our intentions with respect to gun control.

Privacy

[Pierre De Savoye, Bloc, Portneuf, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Industry. The information highway project will increase the pooling of data banks holding personal information of all kinds and disclosure of that information to governments, businesses and institutions.

May I remind you, Mr. Speaker, that privacy is not yet a fundamental right entrenched in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms?

Given that there is no federal legislation protecting the confidentiality of personal data held by private businesses, can the Minister of Industry tell us what concrete action his department intends to take to address this problem which will likely get worse with the implementation of the information highway?

[John Manley, Liberal, Minister of Industry]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his question. He raises a very important question of concern to us.

He may know that the government recently released a discussion paper on privacy and the information highway. The Information Highway Advisory Council is charged with discussing this important issue and with determining what measures are appropriate to take as all Canadians, particularly those who have personal information encased in the databanks of the world, are concerned about protecting their privacy with respect to that information.

[Pierre De Savoye, Bloc, Portneuf, QC]

Mr. Speaker, given the fact that there already are several networks available in Canada and elsewhere, can the Minister of Industry tell us if he intends to ask his colleague, the Minister of Justice, to bring in a bill to ensure the protection of personal data in areas of federal jurisdiction?

[John Manley, Liberal, Minister of Industry]

Mr. Speaker, it may well be that there are legislative responses that would be appropriate to this issue. Fundamentally we will want to hear what the advisory council has to say and what Canadians generally have to say.

The hon. member will understand that in this area technology has developed very rapidly over the last number of years. We expect the revolution in information technology to accelerate rather than decelerate. In responding to the changing environment that technology brings all Canadians-not just government but Canadians who provide information to users of that information-we must take caution to protect their own privacy as we try to protect the privacy of others.