Debates of Nov. 24th, 1994

World Trade Organization Agreement Implementation Act

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Verchères, QC]

Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. We are not surprised that our colleagues in the governing party have difficulty understanding our arguments and our amendments, since once again, I submit to you that we do not have a quorum. And the count having been taken :

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

We now have quorum and are resuming debate on Motion No. 8.

[John Solomon, NDP, Regina—Lumsden, SK]

Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to speak once again on the amendments to Bill C-57. Before getting into my specific remarks on this motion I want to say a couple of things.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for International Trade in his remarks earlier on this bill made some inference that the New Democratic Party provincial governments across this country were not in favour of trading with other nations. I want to correct the record.

I want to inform the parliamentary secretary that coming from Saskatchewan as I do, I know firsthand how important trade is to the farmers of Saskatchewan, the potash producers of Saskatchewan, the steel producers of Saskatchewan, the uranium miners of Saskatchewan and all the other people in our province who rely quite heavily on trade, including those who produce natural gas, oil, coal and other resources. The New Democratic Party government of Roy Romanow is not only on record supporting trade, but has instituted very aggressive trading policies with other nations with respect to the resources of Canada and the resources of Saskatchewan.

I am sure the parliamentary secretary made an oversight or had a sudden collapse of memory when he made reference to NDP governments and their support of trade. I am sure he would want to stand and correct that at some point after my remarks.

[Mac Harb, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, precisely what I said is that the NDP government in Ontario-

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

Order. Clearly, that is not a point of order. I concede it may be a matter of great debate for the House but we are seized with Motion No. 8.

[John Solomon, NDP, Regina—Lumsden, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I am somewhat puzzled to see that not only does the parliamentary secretary not have a great deal of knowledge about Saskatchewan and its many resources, but he does not seem to have a great deal of knowledge of the rules of the House either.

I will continue my preface by saying that the New Democratic Party government in Saskatchewan has been leading in many areas. For example, Allan Blakeney's NDP government from 1971 to 1982 had 11 consecutive balanced budgets, the only provincial government or jurisdiction in this country to do so. As a matter of fact that government was the last one to have a provincial balanced budget. The only reason it did not continue on was that in 1982 a Conservative government under Grant Devine was elected, supported by the Liberals. It proceeded to almost bankrupt the province in the nine years that followed.

At the same time as those balanced budgets we also had a prescription drug plan for all of our citizens. We had a dental plan for all of our children 18 years of age and under. We also had the lowest provincial tax regime in the entire nation.

I know the parliamentary secretary is salivating at this information. He is becoming quite educated with respect to Saskatchewan now that he has had the correct information put before him. I am sure he will look forward to visiting our province some day and meeting with Premier Romanow, who by the way was elected in 1991 after nine years of Conservative government. With respect to Bill C-57, I can assure the House that he has concerns as we do in this caucus with respect to these amendments.

Since 1991 we have undertaken to go from a $1 billion annual deficit to the point where now after three years we are on the verge of being the first jurisdiction provincially or federally in Canada to introduce a balanced budget. I want members of this House to know that. That is under an NDP government.

The second point I want to make is in relation to the Reform member from Peace River. He made some comment about Bill C-57 and the amendments thereto and how he supports Bill C-57, which does not protect the interests of Canadians. He believes it should proceed because he believes in competition.

John Ralston Saul is the author of The Doubter's Companion , a book which members should pay some attention to. It is a dictionary of aggressive common sense in which Reformers are very interested. He defines competition as an event in which there are more losers than winners. Otherwise, it is not a competition.

A society based on competition is therefore primarily a society of losers. Competition is of course a very good thing, he says. We cannot live in a complex society without it. On the other hand, if the principal relationship between citizens is based on competition what has society and for that matter, civilization been reduced to?

The purpose of competition is to establish which is the best. The best may be defined as any number of things: the fastest, the cheapest, the largest quantities. It may even be the highest quality. Unfortunately the more competition is unleashed the more it tends to eliminate quality as something too complex to be competitive.

Finally he says that the point of competition, if it is left to set its own standards is that only the winners benefit. This is as true in economics as it is in sport. A society which treats competition as a religious value will gradually reduce most of the population to the role of spectators.

Democracy is impossible in such a situation and so is middle class stability. That is why the return to increasingly unregulated competition over the last two decades has led to growing instability and an increasing gap between an ever richer elite and an ever larger poor population.

In final summary, competition in a middle class society must include the cost of middle class infrastructure. Hundreds of other factors create hundreds of other levels of competition. That is why in serious competition such as hockey or football there are strict regulations controlling time, movement, numbers, dress and language. Unregulated competition is a naive metaphor for anarchy.

What I want to say, thanks to Mr. Saul, is that the Reform Party wants competition in its purest form. If we have competition in its purest form, which I am not opposed to in a purest form society, we will have in essence anarchy. That is why we have Bill C-57 which establishes in continuity with the WTO some regulations on the playing field we are operating on on this globe.

I am saying that the government has to ensure that the playing field rules have fairness, equity and justice for Canadians as other countries are undertaking to provide for their own citizens.

[Nic Leblanc, Bloc, Longueuil, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I just want to support my colleague from Louis-Hébert, who made an excellent speech. He explained very well his reasons for presenting this motion, which requires considering not only products made in the past but also those to come in the future. I find it rather strange that the government did not consider what may be coming down the road.

We know that technology is changing very rapidly and I do not see how the government overlooked this item. Fortunately, the parliamentary secretary is not looking at me any more, but he should be here to listen to me because it is quite important for him to hear-

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

Order. I appreciate the long experience which the member for Longueuil has, but I want to remind him that we must not comment on the absence of anyone in this House. I will therefore ask the member to stick to his speech.

[Nic Leblanc, Bloc, Longueuil, QC]

Mr. Speaker, you are quite right. It was so important for me that I could not help saying it.

As you know, technology is changing very fast. The compact disks which we see today, that have just come on the market, may be obsolete in a year or two or three. If we do not consider future products, we are likely to have big problems.

For example, some experts say that technology will develop more quickly in the next ten years than it did in the past fifty. Just imagine how many products and machines will be invented. All kinds of inventions will be made just in the next ten years. So I think it would be a serious mistake not to recognize the motion from the member for Louis-Hébert, which says that future products must also be considered.

That is why I wanted to reinforce the very good explanation given by the member for Louis-Hébert, but I still hope that the members here in this Chamber will inform those outside that this motion is really important.

I repeat, it is Motion No. 8, which says that future products and not just present products must be considered. I know that the hon. member near me has understood very well what I just said and that he will hasten to repeat it to his Liberal friends so that this motion passes, because I think it is very important for the future.

[Maud Debien, Bloc, Laval East, QC]

Mr. Speaker, Bill C-57 to implement the agreement establishing the World Trade Organization includes approximately 20 clauses dealing with copyright. Most of these clauses are designed to ensure that the

Canadian Copyright Act is in conformity with the Trade Related Aspects of International Property Right, the document that sets the WTO copyright rules.

On the whole, as necessary as they may be, these are nonetheless minor changes. They do however put into perspective the resistance to change and indifference of the Canadian government in terms of intellectual property, as evidenced by Clause 58, lines 5 to 8, on page 25 of Bill C-57. This clause establishes a new right, namely that of authorizing without consent the fixation and reproduction of the performer's performance. The wording of this provision is prima facie proof of how deeply anachronistic and antiquated the Canadian Copyright Act.

In poetic terms, one could say that in the beginning, there were the natural sounds of the elements: the crash of the sea, the whistling wind, the murmuring breeze, the rumble of falling rocks and the crackling of the fire. Then came the natural sounds of human and animal communication: bird songs, monkey grunts, a child's cry, the murmur of love, the African tam-tam. Less than a century ago, all sounds had to be heard live.

Through an evolutionary and creative process, the air is now filled with sounds recorded on records, tapes, CDs, videos, CD-ROMs. Unfortunately, it would seem that the Canadian Copyright Act remains frozen in time, around 1878 to be more precise, the year that Thomas Edison invented perforated roll recording.

Clause 58 of Bill C-57 is a clear, not to say glaring, example. It reads: "to fix the performer's performance, or any substantial part thereof, by means of a record, perforated roll or other contrivance by means of which sounds may be mechanically reproduced-"

When he invented the phonograph, Thomas Edison thought that sounds could be fixed permanently to be reproduced.

[The Speaker]

Dear colleague, you can continue after Question Period.

It being 2 p.m., pursuant to Standing Order 30(5), the House will now proceed to Statements by Members pursuant to Standing Order 31.

Last Mountain Lake

[Bernie Collins, Liberal, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Mr. Speaker, in September an agreement was signed by the Government of Canada, Saskatchewan Wetlands Conservation Corporation, Ducks Unlimited Canada and Wetlands for the Americas to work with one another and other organizations and individuals. They will maintain and enhance the Last Mountain Lake Western Hemisphere Shorebird Reserve Network Regional Site as a critical habitat for shorebirds.

Last Mountain Lake is the 25th site to be dedicated as a shorebird reserve in the western hemisphere and the third site in Canada. The two other sites are the Bay of Fundy in Atlantic Canada and Quill Lakes, Saskatchewan.

This action will contribute to the maintenance of the hemisphere's biological diversity and further educate people of the internationally significant natural resources Canada possesses to protect for future generations.

Situation In Bosnia

[Jean H. Leroux, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Mr. Speaker, 55 Canadian peacekeepers are now surrounded by Serb rebel forces in Bosnia. It is not the first time Canadian troops find themselves in a difficult situation because of hostile acts by fighters in the former Yugoslavia.

Nevertheless, the illegal actions of Serb forces against international peacekeeping forces in Bosnia worry all Quebecers and Canadians. The Bosnian population is literally torn apart by the fighting that goes on, but it could suffer even more this winter without the presence of the peacekeepers.

Our soldiers are carrying out their humanitarian duties in the former Yugoslavia with courage and dignity, and the members of the Bloc Quebecois are very proud of them. The federal government and the international community must continue to provide them with all the support they deserve.

``Keep Mining In Canada'' Contest

[Dave Chatters, Reform, Athabasca, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to congratulate Sara McMillan of Fort McMurray for winning first prize in the eight year old and under category in the Keep Mining in Canada poster contest which was sponsored by the Canadian Institute of Mining and Metallurgy.

Sara's poster was entered by Syncrude Canada in my riding and was competing against posters from across Canada. Sara is in the gallery today along with her sister, mom, dad and grandmother.

I would like to ask my colleagues to join with me in congratulating Sara for winning such a prestigious award.

[Some hon. members]

Hear, hear.

Child Poverty

[Karen Kraft Sloan, Liberal, York—Simcoe, ON]

Mr. Speaker, Campaign 2000 released disturbing statistics today. The number of poor children in Canada has increased to almost 1.3 million, an increase of 35 per cent since 1989. Campaign 2000 is a partnership of 51 organizations across Canada dedicated to promoting support for the all-party House of Commons resolution to eradicate child poverty by the year 2000.

Campaign 2000 reports that Canadian children today are more likely to be poor, to be dependent on social assistance, to use a food bank and to live in families where parents are unemployed.

As a society we must no longer tolerate this horrible plight faced by many Canadian children. As members of Parliament we must tackle the problem of child poverty.

I urge the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Human Resources Development to allocate more resources toward improving the dismal situation of child poverty. We must not sacrifice future generations in our attempts to reduce the debts of current generations.

Governor General

[Harold Culbert, Liberal, Carleton—Charlotte, NB]

Mr. Speaker, I rise in the House to join with my colleagues in extending sincere congratulations to Romeo LeBlanc on his appointment as Governor General of Canada.

As a New Brunswicker and an Atlantic Canadian I must admit I am very proud of this appointment. I congratulate the Prime Minister on this wise and popular choice. Romeo LeBlanc is well respected in his home province of New Brunswick, in Atlantic Canada and indeed in all of Canada.

Romeo LeBlanc's appointment as the first Governor General from Atlantic Canada demonstrates the high esteem the government has for Atlantic Canadians and goes a long way in dispelling the many slurs recently heard against Atlantic Canadians.

I congratulate Romeo LeBlanc and the entire LeBlanc family on this very happy occasion.

Immigration

[Herb Dhaliwal, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I rise out of concern with the continued attempts by members of the Reform Party to portray immigrants and refugees as criminals.

As reported in a recent article in the Montreal Gazette , ``A Reform MP asserted that almost 25 per cent of refugee claimants have criminal records, when in fact all reliable figures place the rate at less than 2 per cent''.

By making statements like these, Reform members not only imply an inability to grasp the concept of decimal points but also imply an overzealous desire to paint refugees in a negative manner regardless of the facts.

It is disappointing that neither the member concerned nor his party has come clean and apologized for their mistake. In the name of integrity and honesty, I ask the leader of the Reform Party to apologize to the House for misleading Canadians.

Post-Secondary Education

[Michel Daviault, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Liberal government is stepping up its attack on our higher education system, under the pretext of reducing government spending.

After trying to dismantle the Royal Military College in Saint-Jean, the government is now going after universities in Quebec and Canada. In this regard, the Quebec federation of university professors is concerned about social reform trends affecting the financing of post-secondary education.

The Minister of Human Resources Development is trying to make the people believe that his reform will benefit learning. On the contrary, the minister is sabotaging higher education at a time when, in an increasingly competitive international market, economic competitiveness clearly depends on the quality of human resources.

Electronic Democracy '94

[Ted White, Reform, North Vancouver, BC]

Mr. Speaker, next Monday and Tuesday a conference entitled Electronic Democracy '94 will be taking place in Toronto. You must have noticed that every time Reform Party members mention electronic democracy or initiative or referendum or recall, Liberal members enthusiastically demonstrate their opposition to such radical ideas.

It seems they have a redneck in their midst. The guest speaker with top billing at the conference next Monday and Tuesday is none other than the junior minister of science and technology. A sudden convert to real democracy, perhaps the member for

Portage-Interlake now realizes that the way the government ignores the will of the people is going to have to change to keep pace with the information age.

We clearly have a long way to go before all government members catch up with the times because so many of them are set in their ways. However, I am extremely pleased that the more forward thinking members among them have finally realized there is a need to reform our democracy.

Violence Against Women

[Jag Bhaduria, Liberal, Markham—Whitchurch-Stouffville, ON]

Mr. Speaker, fair and just treatment of all members of society is a cornerstone of a compassionate nation. In particular the House will agree with me that wife abuse should not and cannot be condoned in any form.

A victim of wife abuse should not be penalized further, as is the case of my constituent June Ann Sullivan Robinson. She has been ordered to leave Canada because her husband has withdrawn his sponsorship as a result of her complaints of wife abuse over a period of three years. He has since been convicted.

Ms. Robinson is a self-supporting woman with strong family ties in Canada. Her request to immigration officials to continue processing her application under humanitarian and compassionate grounds has been denied.

I am very concerned about the precedent set by this ruling. It sends a message that wife abuse is fair game for a sponsoring husband. I urge the minister to reconsider this policy in view of its far-reaching consequences.

Jim Ashton

[Joe Fontana, Liberal, London East, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to pay tribute to a great Londoner, Jim Ashton, who passed away suddenly on October 25, 1994. His contribution to the city of London was immense for such a short life.

Jim became a member of the United Auto Workers in 1974 and in September of 1985 became president of CAW Local 27. Jim Ashton was elected president of the London Labour Council in October of 1988 and was re-elected to that position just prior to his death.

He was more than a union leader. He was a community and social activist who spoke his mind and stood his ground. He is survived by his wife Lucy and daughters Amanda, Jessica and Tanya, and his sister Susan Ashton of London.

He will truly be missed by all of us but his memory and contribution to the city of London will live forever.

Frank McKechnie

[Gurbax Malhi, Liberal, Bramalea—Gore—Malton, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure and a privilege to rise in the House today to acknowledge the contribution to municipal politics of one of my constituents, Mr. Frank McKechnie, who has the distinction of being one of the longest serving municipal councillors in Canada.

Mr. McKechnie has been elected by the voters of ward 5 a total of 16 times and has been a councillor for over 36 years. His service to Mississauga has been outstanding and his continued success at the polls illustrates the affection of his constituents and the trust placed in him.

I salute the continued electoral success of Mr. McKechnie and commend him on his service to Mississauga.

The Honourable Romeo Leblanc

[Pierrette Ringuette-Maltais, Liberal, Madawaska—Victoria, NB]

Mr. Speaker, I want to congratulate, on my behalf and on behalf of the residents of Madawaska-Victoria, the Honourable Roméo LeBlanc, who will become our new governor general in February. There is no doubt that Mr. LeBlanc is very qualified for the position.

He has always worked with dedication for a united and prosperous Canada. Mr. LeBlanc's appointment is an honour for the Atlantic provinces, for New Brunswick and for all Acadians and French-speaking Canadians. It is the first time that the governor general is a native of Atlantic Canada.

After 127 years of Canadian history, after the deportations of 1755, we are truly pleased, in this year of the World Congress of Acadians, by this historic appointment. This is the crowning achievement of the long and perilous road already covered and still to cover.

I wish the best of success to the Honourable Roméo LeBlanc in his role as governor general. I also want to thank the Prime Minister, the Right Honourable Jean Chrétien, for making an excellent choice.

National Defence

[Michel Bellehumeur, Bloc, Berthier—Montcalm, QC]

Mr. Speaker, a second army doctor, Major Lee Jewer, has also stated that Canadian military authorities ordered the photos of Somalis beaten and tortured by Canadian peacekeepers to be destroyed. This confirms the statement made by Major Murray Armstrong

to the effect that military authorities had indeed ordered the destruction of incriminating evidence.

These new revelations demonstrate once again that the government must appoint, as soon as possible, a real commission of inquiry. If the Minister of National Defence really wants to shed light on the behaviour of Canadian military personnel in Somalia, he must take such action as quickly as possible, rather than wait for the conclusion of the current judicial proceedings. If this is not done, some important evidence will be missing, including incriminating photos, the existence of which is known.

The minister must reconsider his decision.