Debates of Nov. 30th, 1994

Mil Davie Shipyard

[Anne McLellan, Liberal, Minister of Natural Resources]

Mr. Speaker, I simply reiterate the concern of this government. It is with the process that was followed. We are committed to ensuring that all Canadian shipbuilders have a fair and full opportunity to bid on contracts.

I think, for whatever reason, my learned friend across the way is having some difficulty comprehending the fact that our concern is always with fairness.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Natural Resources. If someone has problems in this House, that person is on the other side.

The MIL Davie shipyard, in Quebec, is on the verge of closure. The company needs new contracts to ensure its survival. If the Hibernia contract for a sub-module of electric equipment was transferred to MIL Davie, the company could immediately recall 400 of its recently laid off workers. It is still time to act, since the component housing the modules has not yet left Marystown, in Newfoundland.

How can the minister explain that, with over six billion dollars of economic spin-offs related to the Hibernia megaproject, the MIL Davie shipyard, the only one in Canada with the expertise to build drilling platforms, has so far been awarded only one contract representing a mere $15 million?

[Anne McLellan, Liberal, Minister of Natural Resources]

Mr. Speaker, let me reiterate that this government does not wish nor is it in any position to comment upon the relative merits of one shipyard over another in relation to this contract. What we are in a position to comment upon is fairness and full opportunity on the part of all shipbuilders to participate in this contract. That is what we will ensure.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, let us not forget that Quebecers invested $800 million of their tax dollars in Hibernia, only to see MIL Davie get a small $15-million contract. In the meantime, the Sorel-Tracy shipyard and the Montreal shipyard were closed and every attempt is being made to also close the one in Lévis, while

shipyards in Newfoundland and New Brunswick are being subsidized and contracts are awarded without any tender to Saint John Shipbuilding. Is this all part of a scheme to kill MIL Davie? How can the government be proud of such an attitude?

How can the minister abdicate her responsibility regarding management of Hibernia by always telling us the same old story and hiding behind the private partners of the consortium, when the federal government guarantees close to 50 per cent of the funds for this megaproject, or some $30 billion?

[Anne McLellan, Liberal, Minister of Natural Resources]

Mr. Speaker, let me inform my hon. friends across the way that the Hibernia project has been of considerable benefit to the province of Quebec over the years that it has been in operation and will continue to be in the future. Over half a billion dollars worth of contracts for over 100 Quebec companies.

They do not want to listen, but let me assure my hon. friends that this government has no desire to hurt MIL Davie or any shipyard in this country. What we want to ensure is that every shipyard has the opportunity to be treated fairly.

Gun Control

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, over the past year we have repeatedly seen the government float proposals and legislative intentions without having the faintest idea of what the cost or the value received would be.

This is evident in the human resources minister's policy paper. It has been evident in defence department commitments to peacekeeping and other areas. Today the Minister of Justice is once again putting forward legislative and policy proposals, this time for firearms control.

Can the minister assure the House that comprehensive cost estimates for the firearms control program exist and will be tabled prior to the introduction of his new gun control legislation?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I will be announcing this afternoon particulars of the decisions we have made in relation to the firearms control program.

I can assure the hon. leader of the third party that we have looked in detail at the costing of all the proposals we will put before the House.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, like the social policy reform, any proposed firearm control program cannot hope to succeed without the enthusiastic support of the provinces.

The attorneys general of Saskatchewan, Alberta and Manitoba have already implied that the minister's draft proposals for a national firearm registration system are more likely to increase paperwork than they are to increase public safety.

Can the minister tell the House which provincial governments are supportive of the minister's legislative intentions in this area and which are not?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, the announcement of our decisions will take place this afternoon.

As a matter of courtesy I have furnished copies to my provincial counterparts. In answer to the question put by the hon. member, let me express my own belief that when all the provincial attorneys general look at these proposals and decisions in their entirety, they will support these initiatives.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, time will tell.

With respect to consultation, first the justice department leaks its gun control proposals to the media with appropriate spin doctoring. Then it breeds the support of the interest groups and only then, five days later, does Parliament get to see the documents and the provinces are included almost as an afterthought.

The government puts public relations and interest groups ahead of Parliament every time. It has done this on social policy. It has done it on immigration, on finance and gun control.

Does this order of preference, media leaks first, interest groups second, Parliament third and provinces dead last, reflect the government's consultative priority?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, first, I make no apologies for the four months of personal consultation that I conducted across the country.

During the course of the last several months, I have been in continuous touch with senior officials and indeed with provincial counterparts, attorneys general and ministers of justice, exchanging views about the proposals that will be decided upon and announced this afternoon.

May I make it clear that any leaks to the media were entirely beyond the control of the Department of Justice. What steps we took were as a matter of courtesy to furnish representatives of the hon. member's party and of the official opposition with advance copies of the material so that they could see it before this afternoon.

Ferries

[Antoine Dubé, Bloc, Lévis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Transport.

We heard the news that MIL Davie was treated unfairly by the Hibernia consortium in the matter of a contract that would have maintained several hundred jobs at the Lévis shipyard and, meanwhile, the federal government has yet to announce what it intends to do about the proposal by the Government of Quebec for the construction of a ferry for the Magdalen Islands.

When is the minister going to respond to the proposal made by the Government of Quebec on November 14, and how can he justify his government's slow response?

[Douglas Young, Liberal, Minister of Transport]

Mr. Speaker, Transport Canada is responsible for providing a safe and efficient service between the Magdalen Islands and Prince Edward Island, and we will do everything we can to ensure that the people of the Magdalen Islands have this service.

However, I want to point out to the hon. member that we have asked the operator who is now responsible for providing the service with the Lucy Maud Montgomery to advise us of his requirements, and then Transport Canada will award him a subsidy.

Acquiring, leasing or building a ship is the sole responsibility of the service operator, not of the Government of Canada.

[Antoine Dubé, Bloc, Lévis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, when we started our first session a year ago, I asked the same question and today, the answer is still the same.

Considering how the government deals with matters that concern MIL Davie, how can the minister expect us to believe that the government is not making a concerted and deliberate attempt to close down MIL Davie?

[Douglas Young, Liberal, Minister of Transport]

Mr. Speaker, we have made some progress in trying to determine exactly what is required to provide the service between Iles de la Madeleine and Prince Edward Island.

I want to say to my hon. colleague that we have made significant progress in this place since yesterday. One of the things that has been cleared up, I hope to the satisfaction of every one, particularly my friends who are concerned about the future of MIL Davie, is that in the future whenever the Government of Canada is concerned there will be no question of sole sourcing ships. Any process for acquisition will be through a clear, transparent and competitive bidding process.

Gun Control

[Jack Ramsay, Reform, Crowfoot, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the Terence Wade report commissioned by the Department of Justice reveals that the handgun registration system is replete with confusion, inconsistencies, non-compliance and mismanagement. Most important, the report reveals how completely useless the handgun registration system has been as an aid to law enforcement agencies and in reducing the criminal use of handguns.

I ask the Minister of Justice why this report, which was available in July, was not tabled with the standing committee on justice, why it was not tabled in the House, and why I was denied access to the report by his officials when I requested it three weeks ago.

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I will get answers to those questions and I will put them in writing to my hon. friend. As I told him yesterday, he should have a copy of that report and I shall see to it that he does have one.

Let me make clear, before we lose the point the Terence Wade report made, that the manner in which the registration system for handguns was organized during the past two decades was flawed and needed improvement. It did not condemn the principle of registration nor the purpose of registration.

[Jack Ramsay, Reform, Crowfoot, AB]

Mr. Speaker, right now there are firearm interest groups locked up pending the announcement of the Minister of Justice regarding gun control later today.

The minister has expounded upon his virtuous cross-country consultation process this summer. While in consultation with these various groups did the minister inform them of the findings contained within the Terence Wade report, or was the report concealed from them as well?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, in the course of those dozens of meetings I had across the country I took it as a given that the registration system in place at present in the country for handguns will not serve as a model for any future registration system. It is indeed flawed, without argument.

The point of the discussion in those consultations was how such an approach could be effected to serve the very important social goals that registration can and will achieve.

Collège Militaire Royal De Saint-Jean

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs.

On the issue of the Collège militaire royal de Saint-Jean, the Quebec government is prepared to discuss with the federal government how the transition plan proposed by the mayor of Saint-Jean should be implemented. In Quebec's view, this is an interesting proposal, as it could ensure the survival of the college the long term.

Now that he has finally seen reason, or so it seems, can the minister who welcomed with interest this proposal by the mayor of Saint-Jean tell us if he intends to assign federal officials to resume talks with the Saint-Jean authorities and the government of Quebec?

[Marcel Massé, Liberal, President of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada]

Mr. Speaker, Minister Beaudoin should know that negotiations are not conducted through the media. I have received nothing official from the minister yet. I therefore have no answer to give, since no question has been asked in the first place.

It is essential however that any negotiations regarding the mayor's proposal be conducted on the basis of the two conditions the mayor and myself have agreed upon, that is to say, first, that the conversion of the military college to civilian use must take place and, second, that there must be a transition period. These two basic principles are part and parcel of the agreement proposed on July 19, which the government of Quebec has yet to comply with.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Speaker, we are not negotiating through the media. I have put a question to the minister and I would like to get an answer.

How can this minister have the gall to parade about with the "Sauvons Saint-Jean" badge on his lapel when, once again, he is showing bad faith in refusing to resume talks?

[The Speaker]

Members must refrain from assigning to other members motives that are not honourable. Perhaps the hon. member could rephrase his question.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Speaker, does the minister intend to resume talks, yes or no?

[Marcel Massé, Liberal, President of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada]

Mr. Speaker, the opposition may be under the impression that using unparliamentary language will improve the negotiation climate, but that, of course, is wrong.

The reason I am wearing the "Sauvons Saint-Jean" badge is because we hold the key to the continuation of the college in Saint-Jean and this key is the July 19 agreement. I sent a letter to Mrs. Beaudoin two weeks ago, indicating that I was prepared to resume negotiations on the details of the agreement which is in effect under the terms of the agreement signed on July 19.