House of Commons Hansard #140 of the 35th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was quebecers.

Topics

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12:40 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC

Madam Speaker, as you may have guessed, I proudly welcome this opportunity to take part in today's debate and to join my colleagues in deploring the fact that federal members who represent Quebec here in Ottawa have refused to take part in what is probably the most legitimate democratic process ever initiated by the National Assembly.

Quebec is a democracy. Quebec has one of the oldest parliament in the world, and the entire history of Quebec's nationalism is entwined with the history of democracy. Earlier, I was appalled to hear the hon. member for Hull, who is responsible for the federal government's referendum strategy, trying to discredit the initiative tabled by Mr. Parizeau's government a few days ago.

One thing is clear. History tells us that very few nations have had a chance to write their own constitution. Consider George Washington, Jefferson, Madison and all the great thinkers who helped to draft constitutional texts, and who did so because they were members of the elite. They did it because they were members of the educated class.

What we are saying is that in our quest for sovereignty, we want to have the broadest possible democratic base. This is an opportunity for all Quebecers, regardless of their social class, political allegiance or personal wealth, to come forward and say what kind of constitution they want and what kind of society they want to live in. Because that is what a constitution is all about. A constitution says what we are and what we want to be.

By giving all Quebecers a chance to take part in this democratic process, the Premier is saying to the National Assembly, to Ottawa and to the world: We see sovereignty as part of a quest for democracy. We cannot plan our future, we cannot make this wonderful plan for sovereignty a fact without the participation of all Quebecers.

As many journalists and opinion-makers have pointed out, the situation we have today is different from the situation in 1980. There is no federalist leader with any credibility, and we can hardly expect the present Prime Minister to be able to inspire the federal troops.

In a democracy, the best way to fight against something is to propose something better. There is no other way. Therefore, the best way to oppose sovereignty in 1994 is to show that federalism can be attractive. If the Quebec federalists, whether the hon. member for Saint-Léonard, the hon. member for Saint-Henri-Westmount or any other member from Quebec, believe in their option, they will come forward and address the 16 regional commissions in order to tell us why, in 1994, Quebecers should stick to federalism. They will be welcome to defend their option. But the truth is that federalism does not get anyone carried away.

When the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, with his big ego, suggests that we talk about flexible federalism, we all know that flexible federalism depends on the deficit. But right now, that deficit is so high that the Minister of Finance cannot even watch himself spend. That is the situation. That is why federalists cannot come and sit at a table in good faith and propose a plan for renewed federalism.

We spoke earlier about the economic accomplishments of Quebec, but what makes it special also stems from its deep respect for every component of democracy. I want to draw your attention to the fact that the draft bill tabled before us says something crucial, something all members representing English Canada should keep in mind. Section 3 of this draft bill says that we will draft a constitution which will include a charter of human rights and that-and I will quote section 3-"The constitution shall include a charter of human rights and freedoms. It shall guarantee the English-speaking community that its identity and institutions will be preserved. It shall also recognize the right of Aboriginal nations to self-government on lands over which they have full ownership."

The scope of a section such as this is not well understood. We are saying to the English-speaking people, at the beginning of this debate: Your community is essential to our future. It is with the 900,000 anglophones in Quebec today that we want to think about the future, and we are telling them: In our sovereignist project, we will give you all the place that is rightfully yours.

This is not new because you will recall that, as early as 1967, René Lévesque distanced himself from a segment of the nationalist movement that did not want to recognize the right of the English-speaking community to public schools funded by the government.

We are saying, at the beginning of this debate, to the English-speaking community as well as the aboriginal people, who are our two most important minorities: Not only will you have a place in a sovereign Quebec, not only will we recognize all the rights that are yours today, but we also want you to take part in this democratic process that is taking place.

In this regard, I think that Quebec is probably a better example of democracy than Ottawa. As for the eleven Aboriginal nations who live on the territory of Quebec and form a community of almost 55,000 people, let us not forget that René Lévesque, that great democrat-and I must say that very few members opposite have the courage to quote from the Referendum Act, a tool he left us to consult people-and his government, back in 1985, allowed the eleven Aboriginal nations to be

recognized all together for what they were. We want these rights to be entrenched in the next constitution of Quebec.

Remember that Quebec has experienced that constitution. There is a misunderstanding about the revolutionary nature of what is happening. We are about to recognize the right of our two major minorities to participate in the development of the constitution, while throughout our history, we were forced, as Quebecers, to accept a constitution about which we had never been consulted. It is absolutely outrageous to hear Quebecers and Canadians being told that the process is rather undemocratic because the people will be consulted.

From the Treaty of Paris to the Union Act and up until 1867, Quebecers were never consulted. We want to make up for that, we want as much people as possible to participate in the movement towards democracy that is getting under way. We repeat today, as Premier Parizeau said, that in the next constitution, we are going to recognize the right to self-government of Aboriginal nations, who were in fact the first people to occupy this territory. Such recognition shall be exercised in a manner consistent with the territorial integrity of Quebec. We say to aboriginal peoples that they will have the right-and this right will be entrenched if they so wish-to their traditions, their cultures, their lands and their language. We say to the English-speaking community that we want them to have a public school system, from preschool to university, which is giving them full participation in Quebec life.

In conclusion, I want to say that if federalists still have beliefs, if federalists still believe in intellectual integrity, their place is before the 16 regional commissions which will travel throughout Quebec, because if their option is good enough to convince Quebecers, as they argue, they have to put themselves through this consultation test. It is not by refusing to take part in a democratic process that these people will be able to revitalize an option that is stalling but still has the right to exist.

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12:50 p.m.

Liberal

Pierrette Ringuette-Maltais Liberal Madawaska—Victoria, NB

Madam Speaker, I would like to make a few comments and then ask the hon. member some questions.

First, I would like to make a correction. When my hon. colleague refers to English Canada, he refers at the same time to the protection of minorities in Quebec. I am a francophone member of Parliament and a Canadian and I come from New Brunswick which is not part of English Canada or French Canada, but of Canada.

The hon. members across the floor emphasize the importance of being honest and open and say it is all a matter of choice, but I could show you here that the first page of the draft bill is entitled: An Act respecting the sovereignty of Quebec. They do not even have the courage of their convictions. Once again, they talk about sovereignty when in fact, the objective is the separation of Quebec. We are asked to get involved in what is proposed on the first page of the draft bill.

Allow me to turn to the second page. This draft bill sets out the political objective. As a member from the Bloc pointed out a moment ago: Come on, we have elected a PQ government in Quebec. I hope you were not expecting us to offer a clear choice between federalism or separation to the people of Quebec. This is what she said and it is obviously what they have in mind here.

They say that this bill suggests that Quebec will become a sovereign country democratically. How can they talk about democracy when they have already made up their minds about all the issues to be debated, how they are going to proceed, how to use the currency, share the assets and divide the debt? This is not a clear choice. They are not showing the people of Quebec what the real situation is now and what it could be tomorrow. We are invited, in my case as a so-called member for English Canada, a federalist-

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12:50 p.m.

Bloc

Ghislain Lebel Bloc Chambly, QC

Not you.

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12:50 p.m.

Liberal

Pierrette Ringuette-Maltais Liberal Madawaska—Victoria, NB

Are you not inviting me?

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12:50 p.m.

Bloc

Michel Guimond Bloc Beauport—Montmorency—Orléans, QC

No.

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12:50 p.m.

Bloc

Ghislain Lebel Bloc Chambly, QC

No, you are not invited.

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12:50 p.m.

Liberal

Pierrette Ringuette-Maltais Liberal Madawaska—Victoria, NB

You are not inviting me. Therefore, you do not want Quebecers to know exactly what they are getting into. Thank you very much for not inviting me to participate.

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12:50 p.m.

Bloc

Michel Guimond Bloc Beauport—Montmorency—Orléans, QC

You have nothing to do with that!

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12:55 p.m.

Liberal

Pierrette Ringuette-Maltais Liberal Madawaska—Victoria, NB

You are going to have to decide at some point. You will have to!

I wish to stress that the document I read, the document before me, calls for the participation of the people, presumably only those of the same political stripe, since I was just told that I do not have the right to take part because I am a federalist. Yet, Mr. Parizeau says I do have the right.

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12:55 p.m.

An hon. member

You do not know how to read!

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12:55 p.m.

Liberal

Pierrette Ringuette-Maltais Liberal Madawaska—Victoria, NB

Madam Speaker, it is obvious-

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12:55 p.m.

An hon. member

She does not know how to read!

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12:55 p.m.

Liberal

Pierrette Ringuette-Maltais Liberal Madawaska—Victoria, NB

-that this document is undemocratic and does not lead to a debate on the options. It is indeed a dictatorship in disguise.

As I mentioned earlier, when Quebecers stood up, they rejected the Duplessis regime, they said no to dictatorship. I am convinced that Quebecers will make a sound decision when asked a clear-cut question, not one like this, which is only propaganda.

I wish to tell the members of the Bloc that, even if they do not want me in Quebec, Madam Speaker, my roots are in Quebec, Quebec is part of Canada, and I will go there whenever I please. Therefore, I think we should stop here because the members of the Bloc are just showing their fellow citizens that they no longer want anyone else. They want to remain isolated. Something I regret.

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12:55 p.m.

An hon. member

I have a question, Madam Speaker.

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12:55 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Maheu)

I am sorry, but time is up and I really cannot extend it.

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12:55 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC

On a point of order, Madam Speaker. It was up to you to monitor the member's speaking time. You know very well that the process we are in-

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12:55 p.m.

An hon. member

Enough of that!

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12:55 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC

I am not talking to you, I am talking to the Chair. It was up to you to monitor the speaking time-

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12:55 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Maheu)

Order, please! I am giving the hon. member 30 seconds.

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12:55 p.m.

Liberal

Alfonso Gagliano Liberal Saint-Léonard, QC

On a point of order, Madam Speaker. The 10-minute period is for questions and comments. The hon. member chose to comment, therefore there was no question. You cannot change the rules every time a member complains.

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12:55 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Maheu)

The hon. government member is absolutely right. The time has expired.

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12:55 p.m.

Bloc

Gilles Duceppe Bloc Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC

On a point of order, Madam Speaker. You recognized the hon. member for Hochelaga-Maisonneuve. You do not have to take orders from a government member. I think that the-

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12:55 p.m.

Bloc

Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC

On a point of order, Madam Speaker. I respect your decision not to continue debate. As you are independent, I hope you are not going to let your decision be influenced by the hon. member for Saint-Léonard, who would have been better advised-

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12:55 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Maheu)

Resuming debate. The hon. Secretary of State has the floor.

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12:55 p.m.

Liberal

Alfonso Gagliano Liberal Saint-Léonard, QC

Madam Speaker, I rise in this debate to speak against the motion introduced by the hon. member for Laurier-Sainte-Marie.