Debates of March 24th, 1994

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Suspension Act

[Mary Clancy, Liberal, Halifax, NS]

I am sure you did. You may learn from it too.

Consider the fact that members of the Reform Party think we need more members of Parliament. It is unquestionably true that there are certain members for whom a lack of redistribution is creating a difficulty. I refer to my very good friend, the parliamentary secretary to the minister of human resources who has, as I understand it, the largest and most populous riding in the country. I believe that the parliamentary secretary's riding will soon hit a population somewhere in the vicinity of 300,000.

My own riding has a population of somewhere in excess of 100,000 which is larger than it should be. There are many ridings, particularly urban ridings, where this happens and it will be difficult for urban members. It may well be that we are

going to have to look at some other way to ensure that people are getting the proper representation.

I do not think the hard-pressed Canadian taxpayer wants to hear from us that we are going to increase the number of members of Parliament. Again, my shock really knows few bounds that the hon. members from the Reform Party could possibly be advocating this. They talk about the fact that there is a process in place. Yes, there is. But as the hon. member who spoke previous to me said, we are here to legislate. We are here to legislate when things are not working in their most optimum way to ensure that they do.

This bill is part of our responsibility that we are exercising to ensure that the House does for the people of Canada what the people of Canada deserve and need, not follow a format that has probably outlived its usefulness.

If the members of the Reform Party are worried about the money spent in getting to this point-as apparently they are, I believe I heard the hon. member for Beaver River talk about this yesterday-I can only say that perhaps the time should have come some years ago to put an end to this. Unfortunately we have not been in power for nine years. Now we are and now we say that this must stop. This is not the way to go. This is not the time to increase the number of members of Parliament and that spending the unconscionable amounts of money, a lot more than was spent already, I might add-perhaps it is the arithmetic that is the problem here-is putting good money after bad.

Again I can only reiterate that it is utterly unbelievable, given what we have heard day in and day out since January 17. I know that my friends here are absolutely astounded as am I. I can see that the member for Scarborough-Rouge River just does not know where to turn at this stage of the game.

That members of Parliament from the Reform Party in all seriousness are advocating that we continue this and increase these numbers is really beyond my comprehension. The time to undertake a comprehensive review of the process is now. I take a leaf from the book of my friend who spoke previously and say: This is what we are about. We are all legislators. It is our responsibility to ensure that the legislation that comes from this House is in the best interests of Canadians. It is time to review a great number of things but it is certainly time to review the electoral process and the way we decide representation and how representation shall be meted out. It is time to tackle this issue because we are still at an early stage in the process. It is time because the existing electoral boundaries commissions have not yet invested the time, energy and funds into holding public hearings.

I wonder if my learned friends on the other side of the floor have any idea just how much that process will cost Canadians along with the addition of all those new members of Parliament. I am quite taken aback by the stand taken by the Reform Party of Canada. It amazes me, as I know it would certainly amaze my constituents. There are individual reasons why we do not want this redistribution, aside from the question of saving money, aside from the reason that Canadians do not think we need more MPs.

I will close, Madam Speaker, by saying that in my riding of Halifax I would lose the section known as Halifax Atlantic. It is a wonderful section, the only part of my riding that has a rural element. It has five fishing villages. It has been in my riding since the redistribution that took place just before the 1988 election. I did not win it in 1988, I lost it. In 1993 I won it and I won it in a big way.

I am sure that those members on the other side of the House who are worried about this kind of thing. As a member who has been here for five years I can tell them that kind of change rarely makes a difference in the long run to your electoral majorities if you are a constituency person who works his or her riding. The people you represent are the people you represent, and the geographical ideas that some people put forward as being a problem do not really exist.

The main issue here is saving the money of the Canadian taxpayers. I am appalled that the Reform Party does not want to do this.

[Jean Landry, Bloc, Lotbinière, QC]

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to rise today in this House to speak to Bill C-18, an Act to suspend the operation of the Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Act.

As you know, Madam Speaker, my party does not wish to run in the next elections. We hope that, by then, Quebec will be independent. Nonetheless, the proposals made by the Electoral District Boundaries Commission upset several of my colleagues across Canada.

I am not the kind to shirk my responsibilities. When I saw that the commission had carved up my riding of Lotbinière, I did not have any other choice but to react strongly.

In no time, it created an uproar in my constituency. Following the announcement of the proposed reform, around 20 articles, editorials and letters to the editor appeared in local newspapers. It is hardly surprising since the Bois-Francs area was split into three different ridings. The commission wanted to combine regional county municipalities into federal ridings, ignoring certain historical, economical, social and cultural factors.

To combine RCMs into ridings is reasonable to a point but not if the cities themselves see no benefit in it. For instance, by being shifted from Richelieu to Lotbinière, Bécancour was being moved into the same riding as the other municipality in the Bécancour RCM but was being separated from Nicolet.

In an article published on Thursday, February 24, 1994, in Le Nouvelliste , Mr. Jean-Guy Dubois, Mayor of Bécancour, said, and I quote: ``It is quite obvious that this exercise by the commission members was essentially a demographic one, and that they did not take into account the sense of belonging in these communities''.

And Mayor Dubois added that the Bécancour-Nicolet area cannot be divided. And what about the city of Victoriaville-Arthabaska, the heart of the Bois-Francs area, which was being separated from several area municipalities such as Princeville with which it had real and tangible links.

I can only congratulate the government on its decision to impose a two-year moratorium on this electoral boundaries readjustment process. We are talking about an $8 million exercise. Eight million dollars to move little lines around on the electoral map, displeasing the majority of national, provincial and municipal authorities in the process, all the while trying to preserve electoral quotas and in fact spending public funds needlessly.

Of course a revision of the electoral boundaries is necessary when certain elements of the Elections Act are not adhered to.

Factors to be taken into account, besides electoral quota, are described clearly in section 15 of the Act: community of interests of the inhabitants of a given electoral district in the province or its historical development. Also, care must be taken to ensure districts are not too large in sparsely populated, rural or northern regions of the province.

Recent revisions have shown that more often than not, commissions had used purely mathematical rules to readjust electoral boundaries.

The intent, in this bill, to preserve the integrity of RCMs within districts is commendable but hardly immutable. As we have seen, in certain cases, others factors must be taken into account.

In a commentary published on Tuesday February 22, 1994, in L'Union , the chairman of the CNTU Bois-Francs, Mr. Denis Champagne, gave a general idea of what people think: For an electoral map to be good, it must reflect the various communities and identify the connections between these well enough. Finally, the administrative structure has to adhere to it. Right now, we are in an undescribable administrative muddle''. And he adds:Boundaries now divide RCMs; they overlap different administrative areas. . . In a word, I cannot see the current revision meeting our needs in that respect''.

That is what commissions must look at. It stands to reason that we should review the legislation governing this process. A parliamentary committee should oversee the review of the Act and electoral boundaries should be readjusted. It really needs to be done. It has not been done in 30 years.

Sir John A. Macdonald himself recognized that electoral power parity was essential, while not being the only factor to be taken into account to ensure effective representation. He introduced the Representation Act, 1872, in recognition of this basic truth: "Although the rule concerning the population of each district has been widely obeyed, other factors have been considered relevant to ensure a variety of interests, classes and communities can be represented and the rule of numbers is not the only one used".

This quote was used as part of a ruling made by the Supreme Court of Canada on June 6, 1991, in the case of the Attorney General of Saskatchewan against Roger Carter et al.

It would therefore be worthwhile to review the Act to make sure that electoral boundaries commissions take all these factors into consideration rather than set arbitrary boundaries.

[George Proud, Liberal, Hillsborough, PE]

Madam Speaker, I rise today to participate in a debate that has gone on for some time now about the right or wrong of suspending the Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Act. As one who comes from the smallest province in Canada whose seats have been enshrined in the Constitution and where the numbers can neither go up nor down, people might ask me: "Why would you want to participate in this debate?"

I believe what we are proposing to do here is very worthwhile at this time. We have decided to suspend the act and have the committee look at what way we can change the distribution system to make it better. As my colleague from Vancouver Quadra alluded, I believe personally the change should be in line with the way it is done in the United States.

At this time we are all talking about slowing down the spending of money and other things. The talk going around indicates that we have already spent $5 million but it is going to cost a lot more money if we look at the outcome of the redistribution.

I am not necessarily saying that we should not redistribute the numbers or redistribute the seats, but I do not believe at this time in our history there is any justifiable need to add more seats any place in Canada.

All kinds of institutions are looking at holding the line, reducing numbers or not going ahead with other plans. I notice new provincial electoral reform has just come forward in my own province. I have not spoken on what I think of it. They are reducing seats. The ridings in Prince Edward Island are held by two members. There are 16 ridings and two members for each. This is a throwback to the days when there were two houses. It was 100 years ago that one of the houses was eliminated but two members per riding were retained. They are now talking about changing to one member per riding. I do not know what the end result will be in the number of seats.

It is not the best time for us to go forward and increase seats in the House with the added costs. The provinces that would gain are well represented in the House right now. This can continue. After the committee makes its recommendations we can look at the readjustments.

At this time the whole process needs to be re-examined. It has been many years since it has been looked at. We have been using the same formula for approximately 30 years. Everything is up for review in Parliament, everything in our country. It is not such a terrible thing to do so.

Many people have said that we should expand the number of seats or that we should go forward with redistribution. Again I agree with my colleague from Vancouver Quadra. Maybe the way in which the electoral system has operated for the last number of years has not been the best.

For instance, we should have an automatic formula that kicks in after a census is taken and ridings need to be readjusted. Many times over the years ridings have been readjusted to make it better for some members and make it worse for others. This has always been a trend in our electoral system. As a member for some years now in this House and in the provincial legislature I have indicated that it should be done fairly for every person and for every riding. The people who should be getting the best arrangement are the voters. I do not think that has always been the case.

When we conclude debate, vote on the bill and it goes to committee I trust it will be studied seriously. I am sure the committee will do so, with members from all parties in the House. Then the committee will report back to us and recommend that some changes need to be made.

I am sure, as we go along in the governance of the country, there will be many more important issues that need to be tackled than whether we should change the boundaries and add more seats to this institution. There are now 295 seats. As I said a few minutes ago, the men and women who represent the provinces across the country and the two territories give good representation. Of course one would always like to see more members on his or her side of the House depending on what is at issue. I do not think that is what is intended by the motion although we all know that has happened in many cases in the past.

This is a good time to tackle the issue of setting it aside, reviewing it and at the end of the day coming forward with a mechanism that will make it a better way of deciding on how we raise or lower the number of seats in given areas.

As I said, in my own special case perhaps I should not be the one speaking on it, but I come from the smallest province in Canada. We have four members of Parliament and those seats were enshrined in the Constitution. That was one of the arrangements made in 1873 when the province of Prince Edward Island came into Canada. It was enshrined again in 1982 when the Constitution was amended and brought home to Canada. This is given to the smaller provinces so that they will not go below a certain level. It is the same in the United States. Every state is guaranteed that it will have representation in Congress.

As we head to question period, I say that I had great concern about the way we were rushing into this matter. There were certainly representations made by many members across the country to put a hold on the process for the present time, let the committee have a serious look at it and let us see what needs to be done. I am sure all constituents in the country who are represented here will decide at the end of the day whether or not we do the right thing.

As we look at what is to take place in the country over this period of time I am sure there are issues that can well be addressed just as easy as electoral reform. I am sure all members of the House will join with us when we vote on laying the matter aside and letting what is to happen in the future be determined. I know that Canada will be well represented by this action.

[The Speaker]

Order. It being two o'clock, pursuant to Standing Order 30(5), the House will now proceed to Statements by Members pursuant to Standing Order 31.

Wayne Gretzky

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Brant, ON]

Mr. Speaker, last night Wayne Gretzky scored his 802nd NHL goal to surpass Gordie Howe's all-time NHL scoring record.

Wayne Gretzky was raised and educated in Brantford and his family continues to reside in my riding. Many of us have followed his career with a great deal of interest and enjoyment. Number 99 has won nine scoring titles, the Hart trophy nine times, the Lady Byng trophy three times and the Conn Smythe on two occasions. He has his name on the Stanley Cup four

times, has been a part of three Canada Cup championship teams and holds no less than 61 NHL records.

Off the ice Wayne Gretzky has made a tremendous contribution to many charities and organizations, committing endless hours to help less fortunate groups and individuals. Wayne Gretzky's on and off ice dedication and contributions truly make him the great one.

I invite all members to join me in congratulating Wayne Gretzky on his career accomplishments.

Forest Conservation

[Philippe Paré, Bloc, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Mr. Speaker, today I would like to point out that the 25th Forestry Week, organized by forestry and geomatics students at Laval University, is being celebrated. I want to extend hearty congratulations to these young people who are concerned about making the public aware of the importance of preserving our forests.

Let us not forget that trees are among our most important natural resources. From an economic standpoint, in Quebec, forestry accounts for over 4 per cent of GDP, 15 per cent of export revenues, and over 10 per cent of direct employment. The environmental importance of the forest is beyond question: just think of its role as a CO2 trap.

Again, I congratulate the forestry students at Laval University on their initiative.

Publishing Industry

[Jan Brown, Reform, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Mr. Speaker, everyone knows that the sale of Ginn Publishing Inc. was a bungled deal. The issue will not go away. The sale has become the litmus test of the government's commitment to parliamentary reform and to an open parliamentary process.

The Minister of Canadian Heritage stated yesterday that he had no objection to an investigation by a parliamentary standing committee.

The Liberals speak of an honest and open government but the matter has been discussed in committee and government members have thwarted any opposition attempts for such an investigation. It is easy for the minister to call for an investigation at committee when there is no follow-through for such an investigation.

This government has broken its commitment to an honest and open government over and over. It will not allow this investigation. We saw today it even invoked closure. What kind of open government is this?

National Aboriginal Languages Month

[Jack Iyerak Anawak, Liberal, Nunatsiaq, NT]

Mr. Speaker, March is National Aboriginal Languages Month. Today I want to honour these languages, the first languages in this country.

I encourage the members of this House and all Canadians to support aboriginal peoples in their struggle to preserve and promote their languages. Of the 53 aboriginal languages in Canada, only three have a good chance of surviving, one of which is Inuktitut which I just spoke.

The NWT is the only jurisdiction in Canada which recognizes aboriginal languages as official languages. Through the federal NWT Language Co-operation Agreement, aboriginal languages in the Northwest Territories receive protection and assistance.

This agreement is significant and I commend its objectives to all Canadians.

Environmental Industries

[Karen Kraft Sloan, Liberal, York—Simcoe, ON]

Mr. Speaker, this week Vancouver is hosting one of the world's biggest trade fairs and conferences on environmental industries. Approximately 40 countries are represented at the Globe International Trade Fair and Conference. Along with the thousands of visitors, their participation demonstrates that the business of the environment is enjoying an unprecedented boom.

By the year 2000 world markets for environmental industry products will be in the order of $600 billion annually. In Canada alone the industry includes some 4,500 firms employing about 150,000 people. Its annual sales are now approximately $11 billion and are expected to double by the year 2000.

Globe 94 provides an important venue toward doing business and bettering the environment. It provides a tremendous opportunity for Canadian companies to demonstrate their innovations and find new suppliers, new buyers and new sources of financing.

Globe 94 highlights how sustainable development fosters the development of environmental industries-

Parks Canada

[Albina Guarnieri, Liberal, Mississauga East, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. Minister of Canadian Heritage is to be commended for tabling the new Parks Canada "Guiding Principles and Operational Policies".

Today is an occasion for pride in our rich heritage. This policy document is the foundation for our national and international commitments to protecting and showcasing our heritage.

This initiative results from the efforts made in the last two and a half years by the many Canadians who took part in the consultation exercise needed to develop and refine the policies.

The exercise demonstrated how deeply Canadians care about their natural and cultural heritage preserved by our national historic sites, national parks, marine conservation areas, historic canals, heritage rivers, heritage railway stations and other program elements of Parks Canada.

Canadian Centre For Magnetic Fusion

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Verchères, QC]

Mr. Speaker, on March 20, 1992, the then Deputy Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources, Bruce Howe, made a formal commitment on behalf of the federal government to contribute $7.2 million a year for five years to the Canadian Centre for Magnetic Fusion. This centre conducts research on nuclear fusion in Varennes, using a test reactor called Tokamak.

This program funded equally by the federal government and Hydro-Québec is part of concerted international action on nuclear fusion, a process quite unlike conventional nuclear fission that looks like a clean, safe and promising alternative source of energy for the future.

Despite the representations made to the Minister of Natural Resources by the President of Hydro-Québec, the government decided to reduce its contribution by over $2 million.

I strongly deplore the government's decision to save a little money at the expense of a major research project in Quebec, a province already shortchanged in federal research and development funding.

Members Of Parliament

[Randy White, Reform, Fraser Valley West, BC]

Mr. Speaker, let us get the facts straight about the government's compensation report recently tabled in this House. It is business as usual. Although the Conservatives started it, the Liberals could have stopped it but did not. The initial cost of the report was $150,000 and has escalated to $200,000.

It recommended severance pay for all MPs even though many have jobs to go to after their mandate. It recommended more money for senators and it recommended a 37 per cent pay increase for MPs. The Liberal Party suggests that MPs deserve a raise because they work so hard.

Let us consider ourselves Corporation Canada and we are its 295 directors. Corporation Canada spends $160 billion a year and loses $40 billion. Do MPs deserve this self-indulgence? No. Balance the budget and we will talk about it.

Ethanol

[Rex Crawford, Liberal, Kent, ON]

Mr. Speaker, ethanol is the fuel of the future available today. It is sustainable development, a boon to agriculture, a 30 per cent reduction in harmful greenhouse gases, a plus for the economy.

A $170 million ethanol plant was announced last week for my riding. It will be world scale, 20 times larger than anything now in Canada, competing head on with the U.S. and using half a million tonnes of Canadian corn with an annual economic impact in southern Ontario of over $125 million.

It is a win-win situation giving an economic boost to Canadian agriculture while prolonging the life of oil reserves. The monumental and historic ethanol plant in Chatham hinges on one thing. I strongly urge the government to extend the current excise tax exemption on ethanol fuels for over 10 years.

American states, Alberta-

Irving Whale

[Patrick Gagnon, Liberal, Bonaventure—Îles-De-La-Madeleine, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I want to mention the excellent work done by the government, and in particular the Minister of Transport, the hon. Douglas Young, regarding the case of the Irving Whale . This ship, which has been called a time bomb for the environ-

ment, will finally be refloated. This is good news for the residents of the Magdalen Islands and P.E.I.

The witnesses heard by the Gagnon-Easter committee were able, for the first time, to express their fear to me and to Wayne Easter, the hon. member for Malpeque. They were unanimous in saying that it was time to act, and our government listened to them.

In conclusion, I want to congratulate all those who worked relentlessly for that happy ending in the case of the Irving Whale . All of Eastern Canada is very grateful for that outcome.

Chris Hodson

[John O'Reilly, Liberal, Victoria—Haliburton, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I rise today to congratulate Mr. Chris Hodson, the newest member of the Ontario legislature who won a provincial byelection in Victoria-Haliburton on St. Patrick's Day.

He has been described as a political newcomer, however after closer examination his family name has a long history, including this very chamber. His grandfather, Clayton Wesley Hodson, was the member of Parliament for Victoria from 1945 to 1963. His uncle, Glen Hodson, was the member of the provincial parliament for Victoria-Haliburton from 1963 to 1975.

Once again I want to congratulate Chris on his victory. I look forward to working with him to provide excellent representation for the constituents of Victoria-Haliburton.

Democracy In Mexico

[Nic Leblanc, Bloc, Longueuil, QC]

Mr. Speaker, on behalf of all Bloc Quebecois members, I want to condemn the assassination of Mr. Colosio, the institutional revolutionary party candidate for the Mexican presidential election.

Mr. Colosio was primarily known here as a key player in reform and modernization of the institutional revolutionary party and, since the beginning of the crisis in the state of Chiapas, in January of this year, an advocate of the Mexican election process reform.

Without in any way interfering in Mexican domestic politics, I want to express the general feeling of reprobation among Quebecers in light of this violation of the democratic process of a friendly nation.

Agriculture

[Jim Gouk, Reform, Kootenay West—Revelstoke, BC]

Mr. Speaker, people often remark about grain farm subsidies, usually not in a very positive manner. What most people are not aware of is the problems faced by grain farmers which are beyond their control.

Since the 1970s provincial and federal governments and the Wheat Board of Canada have supplied 18,000 hopper cars to railways.

In spite of this, some Manitoba elevators have not seen a rail car in over two months. Most elevators are full to capacity and April 1 road restrictions in Manitoba will restrict the movement of grain by farmers.

There are currently 30 ships in Vancouver harbour awaiting grain. These ships get up to $20,000 a day in demurrage charges and this comes out of the farmers' pockets. Some ships have left empty after collecting as much as $350,000 in demurrage charges.

Since the Vancouver port shutdown, western grain farmers have lost approximately $200 million in grain sales and demurrage charges. Canadian farmers cannot afford this and neither can the Canadian economy.

National Defence

[Derek Wells, Liberal, South Shore, NS]

Mr. Speaker, the commentary surrounding the recent cuts to the defence budget centres around the closure of four Canadian bases across Canada.

As a member whose riding is losing its two Canadian forces stations, I have to say that the South Shore's loss is just as devastating if not more so when the economic state of the area is taken into consideration.

However, the communities of Mill Cove and Shelburne have begun the process of adjusting to their losses. Steering committees have been formed in both areas to encourage and co-ordinate redevelopment plans.

Right now these communities are concerned that assets from the stations will be transferred elsewhere. This must not be allowed to happen. It is impossible to make plans if the resources available are constantly changing. These committees have taken on a very difficult task. They should not be forced to operate in an atmosphere of further uncertainty.

I therefore urge the Minister of National Defence to freeze all assets at CFS Mill Cove and CFS Shelburne until such time as proposals can be formalized.

Greece Independence Day

[Eleni Bakopanos, Liberal, Saint-Denis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, this weekend more than 40,000 Canadians of Hellenic origin from all parts of Montreal will be in my riding of Saint-Denis celebrating the anniversary of Greece's independence day on March 25, 1821 and the establishment of the modern Greek state.

But this year, Mr. Speaker, Canadians of Hellenic origin have something more to celebrate.

On behalf of my constituents of Hellenic origin I wish to thank our government for playing an important role in the Balkan crisis not only in providing peacekeeping forces in the region but for encouraging all neighbouring states to seek peaceful resolution to their conflicts.

We are proud that Canada is supportive in helping to resolve the differences between Greece and its neighbours.

I would like to conclude by offering my most sincere congratulations to the members of the Hellenic community in my riding, as well as to all Canadians of Greek origin, on this important day.

Zito o Kanadas!

Long live Canada.

Migrant Workers

[Alex Shepherd, Liberal, Durham, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the township of Uxbridge is a largely rural municipality in my riding. The municipality is currently being asked to rezone land to allow for an influx of migrant workers in order to harvest 1994 crops.

These migrant workers are brought to our country under a program administered by the Canada Employment Commission. In the case of Ontario for the 1993 season this program was responsible for the importation of over 9,000 workers.

Many farm organizations claim that they need this workforce to address the seasonality of their industry. I note that many of our industries have seasonal fluctuations such as construction and tourism and that these industries do not require the importation of labour. Others question the reluctance of Canadians to perform this type of work.

I wonder with our current high levels of unemployment and social assistance whether farm organizations and the Canada Employment Commission could review this process with a view to hiring Canadians.

Federal Government

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Beaver River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, we have been in this House since January 17 and Canadians have been watching this government to see what, if anything, would be done differently.

What an incredible disappointment it must be for Canadians to realize that the promises of a new way of governing would guide and shape the activities of this government were not to be kept.

Members opposite are a mirror image of their predecessors. It is simply business as usual. The pork barrel is full. The trough has been topped up. Budget forecasting is still less effective and reliable than weather forecasting.

Junkets are still a pleasant reward and used to keep the backbenchers in line. Questionable handouts to business, business as usual. Laughable handouts to special interest groups and pressure groups continue.

How Canadians must lament when they watch this government day to day and see the evidence mounting that it is simply business as usual.

Unemployment Insurance Reform

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, not only has the business community reacted negatively to the budget brought down by the Minister of Finance, but we also learned this morning that three out of four Quebecers are disappointed with the budget because it will not make the economy stronger.

The three major unions in Quebec have asked the government to delay implementing the measures restricting unemployment insurance until a genuine comprehensive debate is held on social program reform.

Does the Minister of Finance intend to postpone, as requested by the three major Quebec unions, the UI measures announced in his budget until such time as genuine consultation on the reform process has taken place?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, there is no question, and the Minister of Human Resources Development has repeatedly said so, that we intend to begin a process of fundamentally reforming unemployment insurance in order to better prepare workers for training and to create jobs. We have embarked on a course that will enable us to achieve this goal and we will stay this course.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, will the Minister of Finance recognize that he should reconsider his approach which has been to attack the unemployed rather than unemployment itself? And could he tell us if he intends to put genuine job creation measures on the table in order to help people get off unemployment by working, instead of forcing them off UI by cutting their benefits?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, not only have we rolled back the UI premium rate in our budget in order to create jobs, not only have we talked about funding a new training plan to provide more training to our workers, but yesterday-and it surprises me that the hon. member is not asking me a question about this-the Minister of Human Resources Development and New Brunswick Premier Frank McKenna announced a program specifically designed to help Canadian workers.