Debates of March 7th, 1994

Unemployment

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, I would first like to tell the hon. member that the budget did not simply create jobs for Quebec. It will create jobs for all Canadians.

We have a national program and a national approach to these issues and do not try to discriminate between regions in any way.

What happens with the unemployment rate, as the hon. member probably knows, is that once you begin to create economic growth, once you begin to create jobs, it draws people back into the labour market, people who under the Tory regime simply gave up and no longer bothered to look for a job. Therefore the statistical survey results do not reflect their new found confidence and that people have now come back into the job market.

We intend to create jobs. It may not be immediately reflected in a serious decline in the unemployment rate per se simply because more people are coming into the labour market. They now have confidence they will have a job.

[Allan Kerpan, Reform, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre, SK]

Mr. Speaker, the promise of the Premier of Quebec and the projections of the Minister of Finance do not add up.

Could the minister tell the House whose numbers can be relied on in this case, those of the Minister of Finance or the Premier of Quebec?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, with respect to the hon. member, I do not know what is gained by trying to play off a set of figures that he says the Quebec premier has versus a set of figures that the Minister of Finance has.

The real issues which should be at the centre of the hon. member's question is how do we create jobs for everybody and how do we get unemployment down. It is not how we play games about what one premier in one region says versus what happens in the another region. It is about time members of the opposition in both parties took a national perspective on these issues.

Beer Industry

[Yves Rocheleau, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister for International Trade.

The United States are threatening to terminate the beer agreement signed last August. They question, among other things, the fixing of a minimum price on beer by the province of Quebec. Even if the minimum price being considered by Quebec is lower than the one in effect in Ontario, the United States are putting pressure on Quebec to make additional concessions.

Does the minister agree that it is absolutely unjustifiable that Quebec be forced to lower its minimum price to satisfy the demands of major American brewers, and what does he intend to do about it?

[Roy MacLaren, Liberal, Minister for International Trade]

Mr. Speaker, throughout the discussions we have supported the Government of Quebec in seeking a GATT consistent minimal price. We have done so not only directly ourselves but with the participation of the officials of the Government of Quebec in meetings in Washington and last week here in Ottawa.

There are further meetings scheduled for tomorrow where we hope to make further progress in the resolution of this issue.

[Yves Rocheleau, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Mr. Speaker, while the Americans are forcing Canada and the provinces to meet the demands of their major brewers, they implement dozens of discriminatory measures affecting Canadian beer. What concrete action is the minister taking to force Americans to open their market to us, like we do for them?

[Roy MacLaren, Liberal, Minister for International Trade]

Mr. Speaker, yes, the member opposite is quite right. The GATT found that American beer practices were discriminatory and against the interests of Canada. They are implemented mainly by states rather than the federal government.

However, in both cases we have pressed hard for the Americans to resolve this issue so that the beer trade can flow-without any pun intended-easily across the border in a way that protects the interests of Canadian suppliers in accordance with the GATT panel findings.

Members Of Parliament Retiring Allowances Act

[Jim Silye, Reform, Calgary Centre, AB]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Prime Minister. It was inspired by Mr. Frank Filek of Toronto.

It was reported last week that taxpayers are on the hook for another $12.2 million shortfall in the MP pension plan. This follows the $158 million contribution made by taxpayers in 1992.

Will the Prime Minister commit to convincing his caucus colleagues to the immediate elimination of this gold-plated pension plan for members of Parliament?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, there will be a report tabled very soon concerning this problem. We said we want to review the program. We have some months before an election so we have plenty of time. We will look at what is wrong with the program and try to make it more in tune with reality.

On the other hand, we do not want to create the impression that some of us might think we are not value for the money we are paid. When members of Parliament make $64,000 a year and the worst hockey player for the Ottawa Senators is paid $135,000, I do not think that we are overpaid.

It is very bad to create a wrong impression of members of Parliament with the public because most members of Parliament work very hard, earn their money here and make sacrifices to be in Ottawa. The hon. member is creating the impression we are not worth the money we receive. I for one will not apologize to anyone because I think I earn every cent of my pay.

[Jim Silye, Reform, Calgary Centre, AB]

Mr. Speaker, we are talking here about a pension plan and in the private sector we have to match dollar for dollar. In this House, the taxpayers have to pay $6 for every $1 MPs put into their pension. It is gold plated, it is exorbitant and it is too extravagant.

Will the Prime Minister tell Canadians why he and his government support lifetime pensions for members of Parliament after only six years of service?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, we know that life expectancy in the House of Commons is not that great. Judging by the number of members of the Progressive Conservative Party in the House, we know there is no security of employment around here.

I just want to say that some people come to Parliament and when they quit it is not necessarily easy to get re-established in private life. When we look at other pension plans, we have to be fair too.

Some people might think the pension is too much and we will be looking into that. There is a question about double dipping that is a big preoccupation and a problem of some members who take their pensions very early in life, such as was the case a year and a half ago. This is a problem that has to be looked into.

I do not want to create the impression that those who are good members of Parliament are over compensated.

Agriculture

[John O'Reilly, Liberal, Victoria—Haliburton, ON]

Mr. Speaker, Canadian farmers from all regions have been waiting for several months now following the conclusion of the GATT negotiations for definitive word whether resolution of our various bilateral trade disputes with the Americans will be possible.

What can the minister say to the House to reassure Canadian producers and farmers that their interests will be protected.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food]

Mr. Speaker, as the hon. member pointed out in his question, there are several outstanding issues in bilateral trade in agriculture between Canada and the United States. Those have been under discussion since last November. The work on those issues is still ongoing. They have not been resolved to date, nor have they gone away.

My preference would be to have a solid framework agreement between Canada and the United States to lay to rest those outstanding issues once and for all. Such an agreement, mutually acceptable to both countries, would clearly be preferable to ongoing trade actions and reactions that could have the effect of undermining the $10 billion worth of agricultural trade between our two countries.

However, it is important to note two points. First of all, in our discussions with the United States, Canada will not trade off one commodity against another. Each must be dealt with independently on its own merits.

Second, any agreement we might contemplate with the United States must be fair and reasonable and in the Canadian national interest. A bad deal for Canada will not be acceptable to this government.

Indian Affairs

[Maurice Godin, Bloc, Châteauguay, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development.

According to an internal report of the Department of Indian Affairs, the government did a very poor job of managing the estates of aboriginal people of which it was the trustee.

Can the minister confirm that the funds invested were misused because the federal government's monitoring was inadequate?

[Ron Irwin, Liberal, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his question. I am aware of the Auditor General's report and I am aware of our response.

Having come from private practice I realize that it was not made well. I am not satisfied that the response is adequate. This will be a priority on our agenda once we get over the initial stages of implementing the new government.

[Maurice Godin, Bloc, Châteauguay, QC]

Mr. Speaker, as a supplementary question, I would like to know exactly what corrective action the minister intends to take to ensure that the Indians' estates are managed properly by his department.

[Ron Irwin, Liberal, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, as I indicated, this will be a priority of the government. As to the specific remedy, I cannot answer at this stage. In due course over the next few months I will be prepared to sit down with the hon. member and discuss it and show him what we are doing.

Lobbyists

[Ken Epp, Reform, Elk Island, AB]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Prime Minister.

During the election campaign the Prime Minister promised to clean up the business of influence peddling in government. It is widely recognized that one of the best ways to address this problem would be to eliminate the tax deductibility of lobbying fees.

Does the Prime Minister believe that the lobbying fees should be allowed as a tax deductible business expense?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, there will be a statement made in this House about legislation on lobbying on the Hill very soon. I hope the minister in charge will address this problem.

[Ken Epp, Reform, Elk Island, AB]

Mr. Speaker, because there is such widespread concern among Canadians that the proposed changes to this lobby legislation will be so weak that they will have very little effect, would the Prime Minister be willing to give a commitment to eliminate the tax deductibility for lobbyist fees?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I think that I would like to see the bill before saying it is too weak. Let us wait a bit. The hon. member will see the bill after which he can pass judgment.

Canadian National Railways

[Gilbert Fillion, Bloc, Chicoutimi, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Transport. Seven hundred and twenty CN workers will lose their jobs soon. With the agreement of the National Transportation Agency, the company has already begun dismantling the rail system in Quebec. Two thirds of Quebec's rail system is thus threatened, although the impact of such a decision on the economy, tourism and the environment has not been thoroughly evaluated.

Can the minister say whether he will agree to set up a special parliamentary committee to evaluate the impact of dismantling the rail system in eastern Canada and if he is prepared to order a moratorium on the abandonment of rail lines until the committee has completed its work?

[Douglas Young, Liberal, Minister of Transport]

Mr. Speaker, CN and CP must follow a very well-known process for abandoning activities in certain regions of the country. We do not intend to impose a moratorium. The hon. member is no doubt aware that the railways have already disappeared from some parts of the country, like Prince Edward Island and Newfoundland. However, I want to assure him that we are studying this whole issue and the proposal which was already discussed publicly by the president of CN and the president of CP will be considered when it is presented to the government.

Social Programs

[Chris Axworthy, NDP, Saskatoon—Clark's Crossing, SK]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Human Resources Development.

The minister will of course know that the reform of Canada's social programs is under way at breakneck speed. Canadians have recently told the minister by a margin of three to one that they believe his main aim is to reduce social program expenditures. They must have read the budget.

With poverty on the increase and bearing in mind the enormous social and economic cost to Canadians as a result of this poverty, what does he say to the 275,000 Canadian families who live more than $10,000 below the poverty line who fear his reforms will take them even further below the poverty line?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his question.

I would like to correct one part of his preamble in that over 80 per cent of Canadians support the federal government's initiative to fundamentally redesign and restructure the social programs. One reason they do that is they recognize the best way to deal with the serious problem of child poverty, the serious problems families face and the high long term unemployment of older workers is to have contemporary programs that meet those needs where the funding goes toward the people who need it and not simply to those who administer it.

That is the objective of our reform: to get programs to meet needs, not simply to allow a number of programs to proliferate that do not really deal with the crucial issues facing us as we go into another century.