Debates of Nov. 30th, 1995

Unemployment Insurance Reform

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, Mercier, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Human Resources Development.

The Globe and Mail reported this morning, in even greater detail, how much the second so-called UI reform package is out of touch with the labour market, where precarious jobs are no longer the exception but rather the rule.

In fact, the UI reform will discourage young people by making it harder to qualify for benefits, with work requirements going from 12 fifteen hour weeks to 14 thirty-five hour weeks, even in the regions hardest hit by unemployment.

Does the Minister of Human Resources Development confirm that one of the first and most painful effects of his reform will be to ensure to an even greater degree that thousands of young people, who often can find only precarious jobs, are excluded?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, I will be tabling in the House of Commons tomorrow the full details of the new employment insurance package.

We will be, as part of our courtesy, giving a full briefing to the hon. member and other members of the opposition. We intend to extend coverage for unemployment insurance, to take into consideration the new workplace, where there is a lot more part time work, a lot more multiple jobs, a lot more people dealing in a workplace that has a lot more flexibility to it.

That is part of the problem with the existing system. It was designed 50 years ago. It does not accommodate the new world of work we are into. That was one of the key recommendations of the committee that studied it, of which the member was a part. The committee recommended that we find a system that more accurately fits the reality of the new world of work. That is what we have done.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, Mercier, QC]

Mr. Speaker, if the minister had briefed the official opposition and the third party first, before briefing every member of the media in town, we would not have to rely on what journalists say. At least, journalists are doing a good job. And I doubt there would be any evidence to the contrary.

Here is my question: Does the minister not realize that by making it even more difficult to have access to UI, a fact confirmed by every information leak, he will force onto welfare a good many women who are desperately trying to find a way out of poverty?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, please excuse me if I allow myself to smile. The hon. member is complaining about the fact that we were briefing journalists.

It was the hon. member who week after week was waving papers, studies, and leaked reports from her friends in the CSN who purported to know what was in the report. If anybody is responsible for the misinformation about the new program, it is the hon. member for Mercier. She is the one who has been responsible.

Fortunately tomorrow the hon. member will have an opportunity to see what the program is really all about.

National Unity

[Stephen Harper, Reform, Calgary West, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the government has tabled its package of proposals for Quebec, which lo and behold have been rejected by the PQ Government of Quebec and by the future premier of Quebec.

In advance of the next referendum, will the government also be taking other steps? Will it table not only the proposals it has tabled for positive change, but will it also make clear to Quebec in published documents the likely terms and conditions of separation and the real costs of separation?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of the Environment]

Mr. Speaker, unlike the Reform Party, we are not salivating at the prospect of a referendum.

The majority of Canadians and the majority of Quebecers do not want a referendum. What they want is for the Government of Canada to work in a constructive way with provincial partners across the country and with workers to get Canadians back to work. That is exactly the agenda we intend to pursue.

[Stephen Harper, Reform, Calgary West, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I hate to inform the Deputy Prime Minister that bad things can happen even if you wish they will not. It is a rule of life.

Regardless of what the Canadian people or even the Quebec people think, it is clear what the plans of the Quebec government are. I ask the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs once again, is the government consulting anyone-Canadians, think tanks, the C.D. Howe Institute, the Canada West Foundation, the business community? Is the government consulting anyone on the terms and conditions of separation and the contingencies to plan for in the event the Government of Quebec goes down this path?

[Marcel Massé, Liberal, President of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada]

Mr. Speaker, we know that Canada will not go down this path because we are taking the necessary steps and we will continue to take them so that Canada remains a united country.

The group on unity, as I have mentioned, is looking at present at all kinds of constructive ways in which we can deal with the differences that exist among the various parts of the country. We do not want to underline these differences. We prefer to underline the points that are common all across Canada, among all Canadians. The solutions we will bring are solutions that will help us to remain together.

[Stephen Harper, Reform, Calgary West, AB]

Mr. Speaker, this minister assured the House that the PQ would lose the provincial election. He assured the House that the government would win the referendum by a strong majority. None of the things this government has assured us have come to pass.

This time, if it will not at least prepare its own position on the eventuality of another referendum, will it at least insist through a formal request that the Government of Quebec table its proposal for separation, its so-called sovereignty partnership, so that before a referendum all Canadians, including Quebecers, can judge the credibility of these proposals?

[Marcel Massé, Liberal, President of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada]

Mr. Speaker, when we indicated that we were going to look at the results of the referendum and deal with them, we also indicated that we were going to look at the real solutions to present day problems. The real solutions are not the splitting of Canada into various parts, even though the Reform Party sometimes gives me the feeling that this would be its preferred option.

The best way to prevent that from happening is clearly to give good government. We have won the referendum, not lost it. The best way is to deal with the problems that presently exist, not start planning for the worst.

Unemployment Insurance Reform

[Christiane Gagnon, Bloc, Québec, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Human Resources Development.

Every scrap of information on the UI reform, whether leaked or not, points to the fact that women, young people and seasonal workers will be the main victims of the reform about to be introduced by the Minister of Human Resources Development.

Does the minister recognize that his reform will penalize women twice over, by limiting their entitlement to benefits because of the longer work period required, and by making this entitlement dependent not only on recipients' incomes but also on their spouses' incomes?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, just a few minutes ago the hon. member's colleague was complaining about the leaks and the fact that they did not get the proper information. Now the hon. member is using

other leaks or misinformation to make an allegation or charge about the impact of the study.

The reality is that tomorrow we will present a fully comprehensive indication. The hon. member will find that the purpose and the direction we have adopted is designed to give more support for women coming into the workforce, to provide extended coverage for those in part time work, to provide for a stronger element of resources for people to get employed.

It would seem to me that the sooner the Bloc Quebecois starts getting itself interested in the issue of defending and promoting jobs as opposed to defending unemployment, it might be an awful lot better off.

[Christiane Gagnon, Bloc, Québec, QC]

Mr. Speaker, here is my supplementary question.

Does the minister realize that his reform will jeopardize 20 years of sustained efforts on the part of women to achieve greater financial independence?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, there is a very simple fact. Last year, because of the change in the emphasis of our employment programs, the number of women in Quebec who participated in our employment programs actually increased. Furthermore the new employment equity bill which we hope the Senate will return before Christmas will be providing further opportunities.

When the hon. member says we are ignoring the cause of women, frankly she does not know what she is talking about.

National Unity

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Beaver River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Prime Minister pleaded with Canadians to support his Quebec package of Mulroney leftovers: distinct society and constitutional veto. However the government does not have the courage to let those very same Canadians vote directly on the package. Instead of trusting Canadians, the Prime Minister has decided to ram the proposals through Parliament.

Because the government will not trust the Canadian people with the country's future, will it at the very least call off the Liberal whip and allow a free vote on the Prime Minister's Quebec package?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of the Environment]

Mr. Speaker, the fact is that the Canadian people are a lot bigger and a lot more generous than the Reform Party gives them credit for. The Canadian people support the initiative of the Prime Minister. Frankly, my phone has been ringing off the wall with people complaining about the disgraceful performance of the Reform Party in the debate about Canada.

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Beaver River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, Canadians voted no on Charlottetown and I suspect if the government had the courage to ask them to vote again they would again vote no, loudly and clearly.

This government talks about equality but it learned absolutely nothing from Meech Lake and Charlottetown. If the national unity package is to have any hope of succeeding, it must win the support of Canadians. It has to be by Canadians. It needs to be for all of them and it must receive popular ratification.

Canadians are sick and tired of being used as the Liberal government's personal political pawns. They want the first say and they want the final say when it comes to these things. Will the government commit to holding a national binding referendum on any constitutional change so that the Canadian people, not provincial governments and federal politicians, have the final say as they were allowed to do with Charlottetown in 1992?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of the Environment]

Mr. Speaker, before the hon. member makes claims about the positions of the government, she would be well advised to read what her own leader had to say on the issue of distinct society back in 1989. He said in an interview on the distinct society clause: "At a strategic level I think we could accept some kind of trade-off between Quebec and the resource producing regions". That is what Preston Manning had to say about distinct society then. Why is he saying something different now?

[The Speaker]

Colleagues, I would remind you to please address each other by title rather than by name.

Unemployment Insurance Reform

[Antoine Dubé, Bloc, Lévis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Human Resources Development.

In his full-scale attack against UI reform, the Premier of New Brunswick, a faithful constitutional ally of the Prime Minister, accused Ottawa of revamping the UI program on the backs of workers in eastern Quebec and the Atlantic provinces.

Does the minister endorse the New Brunswick Premier's statement that his reform is a deliberate attack against the Atlantic region and eastern Quebec?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, I will tell the House what words of the hon. premier of New Brunswick I do agree with. He said in today's Saint John Telegraph Journal : ``Several of the features of the reform will

be very positive in terms of making it worthwhile to work and there are a number of elements of the reform that we find praiseworthy".

[Antoine Dubé, Bloc, Lévis, QC]

I have a short question, Mr. Speaker. Does the minister share Premier McKenna's opinion that his UI reform will cause an "unprecedented political backlash" east of Ontario? That does not sound like someone who agrees with the minister.

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, once again I want to point out that the meeting last evening with the four Atlantic premiers was a very useful and helpful exchange. We were able to share concerns.

What is more, the four premiers of the Atlantic region, unlike the hon. member and his colleagues in the Bloc Quebecois, understand good information. They do not deliberately go out to create distortion. In fact, when they were given the opportunity to work with and understand the facts, they came out and said as Premier McKenna did, that they found the reforms praiseworthy.

Indian Affairs

[Jay Hill, Reform, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Mr. Speaker, a recent memo confirms Indian affairs is planning to throw money at resolving some outstanding issues it has been dragging its feet on. This is a payoff to silence Quebec's aboriginal people during the dream team's constitutional talks in Quebec.

While I can understand that Quebec natives want to see their issues resolved, blatantly bribing them to keep quiet during the Quebec round of talks is an insult to them and to all Canadians.

Will the minister of Indian affairs confirm whether one of his ADMs is responsible for this policy position, yes or no?

[Ron Irwin, Liberal, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, if the member is referring to the article in the Globe and Mail and several others, I did not see that memo. I never asked for that memo and if I have to read it in the Globe and Mail I am not going to pay much attention to it.