Debates of Nov. 9th, 1995

Purchase Of Helicopters

[Maud Debien, Bloc, Laval East, QC]

Mr. Speaker, as a supplementary, I would like to ask the minister if he intends to make public this agreement in principle as soon as possible.

Knowing that the former NATO secretary general, Willy Claes, was forced to resign from his position after being accused of accepting bribes from the Italian firm Agusta when Belgium purchased EH-101s, how can the government insist on dealing with a company whose selling methods are suspicious to say the least? In talking to the media yesterday, the minister himself mentioned Boeing, Bell, Sikorsky, Eurocopter and Agusta-Westland as possible suppliers for this contract.

[David Dingwall, Liberal, Minister of Public Works and Government Services and Minister for the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency]

Mr. Speaker, the similarities between the Minister of National Defence and me are rather apparent.

The hon. member must realize there is such a thing as confidentiality between the contractor, who has a variety of subcontractors, and the government of Canada.

Negotiations have been ongoing for close to two years. They have been vigorous, they have been enthusiastic and at times they have been extremely difficult. We have now reached an agreement in principle. I will be happy to provide all of the details to the House at the most opportune time.

On the grounds of confidentiality, until certain matters have come to a final conclusion, I am precluded by law, by the contract and the agreement in principle to provide that information today. However, I hope I can provide it as soon as humanly possible.

Disaster Assistance

[Glen McKinnon, Liberal, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Mr. Speaker, last spring many communities in western Manitoba received a significant amount of damage due to flooding. People are concerned about receiving and recovering the appropriate costs resulting from the damage.

Could the minister responsible for emergency preparedness please explain how the disaster assistance agreement between the federal and provincial governments will help these people?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, the disaster and financial assistance agreements were established so that provincial and territorial governments could receive assistance in the case of natural disasters.

In the case of the Manitoba flooding this spring, the normal rules were put in place and the procedures followed. Similar things have happened in Saskatchewan recently.

I understand the minister responsible in the Manitoba government has been saying that for some reason the federal government has been changing the rules and regulations and that somehow the people of Manitoba have been deprived of their rightful share under these programs. That is totally and absolutely false.

Health Care

[Grant Hill, Reform, Macleod, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the Quebec health minister today made an ominous announcement: seven hospitals in Montreal will be closing.

While our Minister of Health fools around with her pet national forum on health, thousands of Canadians will suffer. Will the minister admit health care reform in Canada is long overdue?

[Diane Marleau, Liberal, Minister of Health]

Mr. Speaker, it is acknowledged the health care system must change. All provinces are bringing about a number of changes because the way we practise health care has changed. There are new technologies. The hon. member knows that.

The minister of health for Quebec is doing the same things others have done across the country; that is, ensuring that the dollars spent on health care go to the new technologies, to the new ways of doing things.

[Grant Hill, Reform, Macleod, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the federal minister has solutions. There is a very innovative neuromuscular clinic in the riding of York Centre, the Magee clinic. The minister will shut it down. Has she warned her colleagues from the Toronto area to expect the irate phone calls from their constituents?

As she penalizes, punishes and pushes out innovation, will she explain that to her colleagues?

[Diane Marleau, Liberal, Minister of Health]

Mr. Speaker, I would think that after two years in the House the hon. member would understand the jurisdictions within health and that the actual management of the health care system is at the provincial level. That is part of the flexibility of the Canada Health Act. The provinces manage the health care system.

The federal government has the Canada Health Act, which imposes the five principles which are tied to the transfer of moneys. That is what is happening.

Helicopter Purchase

[Michel Bellehumeur, Bloc, Berthier—Montcalm, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of National Defence.

The persistent refusal of the minister to exclude Agusta from the bidding process for new helicopters is particularly hard to understand, because the man sitting on the minister's left, the current Minister of Human Resources Development, asked for a judicial inquiry when the Conservative government signed the first contract with that firm.

Can the minister tell the House whether his unacceptable refusal to exclude Agusta from the bidding process is linked to pressures brought to bear on the government by Agusta's lobbyists, namely Daniel Despins, a former director of communications for the Liberal Party of Canada, and James Pacey, a former special adviser to Pierre Elliott Trudeau?

[The Speaker]

Colleagues, sometimes, questions as worded are not too-I would like to ask you, when you put questions like that-

-you cannot impute motive in any way. I caution the hon. member for Berthier-Montcalm. I will permit the hon. minister of public works to answer the question.

[David Dingwall, Liberal, Minister of Public Works and Government Services and Minister for the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency]

Mr. Speaker, I do not agree with the preamble of the hon. member's questions. His allegations contained in the body of his questions are absolutely false.

[Michel Bellehumeur, Bloc, Berthier—Montcalm, QC]

I did not think mentioning Pierre Elliott Trudeau was a crime, Mr. Speaker.

Here is my supplementary. In view of the cloud of suspicion hanging over Agusta and the charges of bribery that have been laid against that firm in Belgium, would it not be wise for the minister, before going any further, to set up the inquiry requested by his colleague the Minister of Human Resources Development on April 13, 1993?

[David Dingwall, Liberal, Minister of Public Works and Government Services and Minister for the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member just does not get it. The contract he refers to was cancelled by the government upon coming into office.

As a result, we have entered negotiations with the two main contractors for termination costs. We have been successful with the first one. We have come to an agreement in principle with regard to the second one. I hope to be able to provide all of the details so the hon. member once and for all will be able to understand that these kinds of allegations and this kind of mud he has been playing in for quite some time are utterly false, just like the allegations he makes here again today.

Sydney Tar Ponds

[Randy White, Reform, Fraser Valley West, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the worst environmental disaster in Canada still festers in the backyard of the minister of public works in Sydney, Nova Scotia.

In February the environment minister mimicked her boss by saying don't worry, be happy, the Sydney tar ponds PCB clean-up is proceeding. It is not; it is broke.

Will the environment minister commit to a federal inquiry to determine why $55 million was wasted over 10 years with no results, who was responsible, how long the people of Sydney have to live near this sewer and who got rich during the deal?

[The Speaker]

Usually we have a question and we may tack on a partial question, but four is going a bit out of the way. Would the hon. minister address the first two questions.

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I do not accept in any way the premises, insinuations or innuendoes of any part of the hon. member's questions.

On behalf of the Minister of the Environment, I will take those parts of the question that are in order as notice and endeavour to get the hon. member an answer as quickly as possible.

[Randy White, Reform, Fraser Valley West, BC]

Mr. Speaker, that is sort of what we heard last February. They are not misleading premises, they are fact.

The environment minister has done absolutely nothing for the environment in the two years since she has been in the portfolio. What we have here is yet another dredging scandal, only this time it is in Sydney, Nova Scotia, not in Hamilton harbour, and we have a city with the highest cancer rate in the North America.

I would like to ask the Minister of the Environment will there be any further federal involvement into this disaster, or will the people of Sydney, Nova Scotia be involved in future discussions related to the clean-up of the tar ponds?

This is not about patronage, so I ask the Minister of the Environment, not the minister of public works.

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member from time to time has shown that the link between himself and facts is sometimes tenuous.

Having said that, I realize the concerns of people in that community about a safe environment are important. They are important to the government and to the members of Parliament

from that area. Therefore, I will take the question as notice and provide a full answer as quickly as possible.

Medicare

[Judy Bethel, Liberal, Edmonton East, AB]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health.

Albertans are increasingly anxious about the erosion of medicare, resulting from the proliferation of private clinics in Alberta charging facility fees for medically insured services.

Can the minister assure Albertans that medicare will be protected from attempts to create a two-tier system where access and quality of service are based on the amount of cash in one's wallet?

[Diane Marleau, Liberal, Minister of Health]

Mr. Speaker, I am sure members of the House, on both sides, will be happy to know that I met with the minister of health for Alberta on Monday in Winnipeg in order to discuss ways to eliminate facility fees that were being charged for medically necessary services in private clinics.

The minister of health for Alberta gave me her personal assurances that Alberta would be eliminating facility fees in private clinics. I applaud the minister of health for her initiative.

Until that time, we will be deducting approximately $420,000 a month from transfers to the province of Alberta.

Purchase Of Helicopters

[Pauline Picard, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the minister of defence.

Yesterday, the federal government announced a competition for the acquisition of 15 rescue helicopters, with no Canadian content requirement in the specifications. Considering that the Canadian aerospace industry is concentrated in the Montreal area, how can the minister justify this change of heart on the part of the federal government, given that, two months ago, he awarded without tender a $2 billion contract for armoured personnel carriers to Ontario but that he is now taking a different approach for the helicopter contract?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I find it quite interesting that Bloc members condemn the government for yesterday's announcement to buy search and rescue helicopters, while many critics, analysts and others in Quebec actually congratulated us for it.

Just this morning, I read the following in Le Devoir : ``Yesterday's announcement is good news. As for the price of the helicopters, it should not exceed $40 million per aircraft, three times less than the EH-101''.

That is on the one hand. On the second point that the hon. member raised with respect to why there was a sole source contract for the armoured personnel carriers and a competition on this equipment, we have in Canada, with General Motors' diesel division in London, the only Canadian manufacturer. It is well known. It has a worldwide product mandate for the making of armoured vehicles. It was quite logical to have the contract awarded and negotiated with that company. Many companies in Quebec will benefit because many of the suppliers are located in the province of Quebec.

When it comes to the helicopters, we do not have that same kind of capability, although there may be some offshoots for various companies that may compete. Therefore, it makes sense to get the best deal by having an open competition and invite people from around the world to bid.

Social Programs

[Jan Brown, Reform, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the recent welfare war between British Columbia and the federal government suggests that the minister and the government have no vision for federalism, certainly not a new one.

The issue is not whether B.C. or the government is right but that provinces should have the authority to make their own decisions in areas of provincial jurisdiction.

When will the government get off B.C.'s back and begin co-operative work with all provinces to give them exclusive powers in jurisdictions that are constitutionally theirs?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, it is evident that the hon. member has not been following in a careful way what has been developing over the last several months.

As a consequence of the announcement of a new transfer program to the provinces, which will give them far more flexibility, the provincial premiers last summer set up the Council of Social Service Ministers to begin developing a common provincial approach. Once that was completed they would then sit down with us and undertake the negotiations. We welcomed that initiative. We thought it was a very positive way to proceed.

Unfortunately the British Columbia government sort of skipped out on that process, short-circuited it and decided unilaterally to do

something different without consulting their provincial colleagues, without staying within the process and therefore has created a problem.

As I said before, the law is the law. I find it exceedingly strange that when members of the Reform Party are constantly demanding in this House that we ensure that individuals live up to the spirit and the letter of the law, they do not want a province to live up to the spirit and letter of the law.

Education

[Chris Axworthy, NDP, Saskatoon—Clark's Crossing, SK]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Human Resources Development.

StatsCanada has recently confirmed that young Canadians with lower educational qualifications have suffered very badly in the job market over the last five years. The statistics confirm that without a post-secondary education the doors for employment have been slammed shut for young Canadians. We know that education is the pathway to the future for young people, yet the government has been cutting billions of dollars from transfers to post-secondary education to the provinces.

How can the minister justify these cuts to the tens of thousands of young Canadians who are seeing their opportunities choked off by the government's actions?