Debates of June 22nd, 1995

Transport

[Douglas Young, Liberal, Minister of Transport]

Mr. Speaker, one of the things I have tried to avoid doing in answering some of the questions from the hon. critic for transportation for the third party is to take courses in dealing with split personalities to try to cope with them.

Mr. Speaker, if you listened to that question you would understand that on the one hand he is suggesting that we are going to lose $400 million to $500 million as a result of the cancellation of the Pearson contract.

We are on the record as saying that we will compensate for reasonable out of pocket expenses, not one cent more, regardless of who thinks, including the hon. member, that we should be taking care of people who have not driven a nail or laid an ounce of concrete at Pearson by giving them up to half a billion dollars.

With respect to Hughes, we have gone to the Auditor General of Canada. We are negotiating with Hughes. We recognize that there was mismanagement in that contract, both on the side of the government as well as by Hughes. We recognize that. We have admitted that publicly. Now we will do with Hughes what we are attempting to do with Pearson, which is to protect the taxpayers of Canada, whether he likes it or not.

[Jim Gouk, Reform, Kootenay West—Revelstoke, BC]

Mr. Speaker, if the Minister of Transport is to protect the Canadian taxpayer by paying more for less, no wonder we are in trouble.

Instead of doing the right thing, the government is trying to manipulate testimony going to the Senate. Members of the Canadian Bar Association were to speak very critically of Bill C-22 during the Senate hearings. The Minister of Justice called them to his office and told them to back off. The implication of penalty is obvious.

My question is for the Prime Minister. Did the Minister of Justice do this on his own? Was he directed to do so by the Prime Minister's office?

[Douglas Young, Liberal, Minister of Transport]

Mr. Speaker, as a member I hope in good standing of the Canadian Bar Association, I would want to explain to my hon. colleague that people have come before the Senate committee to discuss the issue of Pearson. Although I may disagree with them on some issues, we recognize the credibility of the group that came before the Senate to make its position known with respect to the constitutionality of Bill C-22.

It is highly irregular, if not totally improper, for the hon. member to come before the House and to suggest that members of the Canadian bar have been coerced by the government or anybody else. The hon. member should be aware that there are conflicting opinions on this, but certainly nobody has tried to manipulate the Canadian Bar Association. Had we done that, we would not have got the kind of testimony we got in the first instance with respect to the constitutionality of Bill C-22.

Bovine Somatotropin

[Michel Daviault, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Prime Minister.

If the use of somatotropin is authorized in Canada, consumers will demand that the milk produced using this hormone be labelled to distinguish it from unadulterated milk. Our children have the right to drink real milk with no hormones.

Will the Prime Minister acknowledge that if Health Canada authorizes the sale of somatotropin, either of two things will happen: citizens will either be confronted with a done deed and will have no choice but to consume the milk produced with the synthetic hormone, or they will have to pay more for the milk they are used to drinking in order to fund the cost of keeping two separate distribution networks for milk?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the minister explained yesterday that no decision has been made on the issue, that the moratorium is voluntary, and that, on July 1, the Department of Health will not be in a position to authorize the sale of this hormone to Canadian consumers.

The hon. member apparently made the suggestion that we should inform consumers if the use of the hormone is going to be allowed. But this is a purely hypothetical question, because the government has not made any decision yet regarding whether it will be authorized, if it ever is at all.

[Michel Daviault, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I will certainly excuse the Prime Minister for not being up to date on the issue. But, in fact, if Health Canada gives its approval, agriculture will need two years to set up a system. That is why the agriculture committee, in addition to the health committee, this morning, demanded an indeterminate ban on this substance.

Given that this is the last question we will be able to ask on the issue, I am going to ask the Prime Minister a genuine question, a simple question. Why must our children drink anything other than real milk, with no artificial hormones added?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the answer is that, in Canada, at the current moment, the milk children are drinking has no artificial hormones. Artificial hormones are banned in Canada, and that is the current situation. If there is any change in the situation, we will inform the House and we will take appropriate measures. But, at this time, all of these questions are purely hypothetical because the hormones in question are not authorized for use in Canada.

The hon. member just said that this was the last time he would be asking a question. I hope that they are not going to devote all their efforts to the referendum and stop doing the work required of an MP. If they do, I hope they will give back their salaries.

Small Businesses

[John O'Reilly, Liberal, Victoria—Haliburton, ON]

Mr. Speaker, my question concerns the minister of public works. A recent government report shows that a federal program to direct $1.5 billion a year in federal contracts to small business may not be necessary because this sector already gets its fair share of government business.

Could the minister advise the House on the relevance of the report and what changes the minister plans on implementing?

[Réginald Bélair, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, the government has a strong commitment to small business in the country. The small business report to which the member refers confirms that 32 per cent of government services contracts are given to small businesses.

However, over the last few months a consultation process has been initiated with major industries, aboriginal businesses and political groups across the country on the desirability of having a set aside program. Preliminary reports show a clear message that we do not need a set aside program for small businesses as they can compete with larger industries. In contrast, the set aside

program for aboriginal businesses is strongly supported by aboriginal groups and non-aboriginal industries.

The ministers of public works, industry and Indian affairs are monitoring the situation very closely as they are considering to use these procurements to help small aboriginal businesses across Canada.

Literacy

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Beaver River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday I quoted passages from "Making Scenes Between the Lines" for the minister of human resources. He was rightly shocked by the obscene language in it and wondered where I got my reading material. I hope the minister has now had time to realize that this booklet was funded by the government for use in classrooms across the country.

If the minister has actually had time to read this booklet in the interim, does he not agree that "Making Scenes Between the Lines" has no place our children's schools?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, I have had the opportunity to look into the allegation made by the hon. member for Beaver River.

The fact is that the whole program was being sponsored by 21 organizations across the country, including the Canadian Bar Association, the John Howard Society and the Salvation Army. Their attempt was to try to provide ways of linking the use of literacy to crime prevention and to provide a way of enabling particularly young people who are at risk with the law to find solutions.

One of the booklets was prepared by the young people themselves, expressing their concerns and their feelings. I want to point out to the hon. member that the booklet has never been distributed to any school. It is for adult use only and distributed by those organizations. I think it is time the hon. member withdrew her allegation.

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Beaver River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the executive assistant in the senator's office who funded this said yesterday that it was for adult use only.

On the contrary, James MacLatchie, the chair of the organization, said to press and MPs alike: "This is to go to all schools across the country without respect to grades or age level". There are two different stories coming out there. James MacLatchie should answer those questions.

Whether it is for adults, criminals, dropouts or young people in schools across the country, would the minister agree that this obscene language is not good for anybody to learn to read and write? Will he obviously cancel it? Will he cut his losses, recommend to the senator responsible for it to cut her losses and cancel the booklet rather than cut their own throats and let it go ahead?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, it is unfortunate the hon. member for Beaver River did not consult with her own colleague, the member for Mission-Coquitlam, who attended the press conference at which the booklet and the kit were released.

At that time the member for Mission-Coquitlam congratulated the minister responsible for literacy on the presentation of the document and applauded the efforts to provide protection against crime by the use of literacy.

I would simply like to raise a question with the leader of the Reform Party. Is he going to ask the member for Beaver River to resign after such overt, obvious fumbling of the question she has raised?

French Scientific Journals

[Christiane Gagnon, Bloc, Québec, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Canadian Heritage. After the news that funding provided by the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council for scientific journals in French had been cut by nearly 50 per cent, while scientific journals-

[The Speaker]

We only have five minutes to go.

[Christiane Gagnon, Bloc, Québec, QC]

Mr. Speaker, after the news that funding provided by the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council for scientific journals in French had been cut by nearly 50 per cent, while scientific journals in English were not affected, we heard today that the National Museum of Science and Technology will from now on publish its magazine on astronomy in English only.

What explanation does the Minister of Canadian Heritage have for this kind of decision by an agency for which he is responsible?

[Michel Dupuy, Liberal, Minister of Canadian Heritage]

Mr. Speaker, earlier this week, I had an opportunity to comment on a sports-related case, and I emphasized the importance of maintaining the status of the French language and complying the official languages legislation.

My answer will be the same today. I intend to see that these rules are observed by all federal government agencies.

[Christiane Gagnon, Bloc, Québec, QC]

Mr. Speaker, would the Minister of Canadian Heritage endorse this offensive remark by a spokesperson for the museum, and I quote: "If we want the public to buy our new magazine, we would have to offer them a high quality product produced by competent people".

[Michel Dupuy, Liberal, Minister of Canadian Heritage]

Mr. Speaker, I always expect our national museums to have high quality products in both languages.

Aboriginal Affairs

[John Duncan, Reform, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Mr. Speaker, in response to a question on May 8 from the hon. member for Nanaimo-Cowichan about allegations of sexual abuse at the Lac Barrière reserve, the minister of Indian affairs responded that it was a criminal matter and police were investigating. The band states that it is not aware of any police investigation and a recent federal-provincial-band memorandum of understanding is viewed as pre-empting a police investigation.

Does the minister continue to state that there is a police investigation into sexual abuse when the band says there is not?

[Ron Irwin, Liberal, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, I came here today prepared to commend the hon. member and his colleague in the Reform Party who went up to Barrière Lake. I thought that was very broad minded.

I sat here and listened to the statement of the pair. The aboriginal people of Barrière Lake do not have the opportunity to stand in the House and I feel it is incumbent upon me to put forward their side on what happened.

I was handed a letter that was handed to the hon. member who put the question. They welcomed the hon. members up there. They wanted to show them their way of life. The hon. members chose the topics. They asked questions like: "Is the premier of Quebec the minister of aboriginal affairs? How do you become an elder?" They met with the accountant and they refused to listen to him. They wanted to take them to show them their forestry but they refused.

They ended up by saying: "We thought we were dealing with honourable people who wanted to learn about us. We forgot we were dealing with partisan politicians who are more interested in advancing their own political agenda than in hearing the truth. As I was saying at the beginning of this letter, I hoped this meeting would enlighten you. Apparently it didn't".

Mr. Speaker, it is a shame, a real shame.

[John Duncan, Reform, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the minister was further asked about allegations of misappropriation of $255,000 in legal fees to a co-president of the aboriginal committee of the Liberal Party, to which the minister responded that it was a criminal matter and up to the sûreté. According to the band, the RCMP has jurisdiction, not the sûreté, and the sûreté has done nothing. The RCMP has done little, if anything, other than a single brief visit with no follow up.

Is this a shell game or does the minister want to get to the bottom of the allegation?

[Ron Irwin, Liberal, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, this allows me to clarify my answer on that date.

The investigation by the la Commission de la jeunesse is in relation to the sexual abuse. The member for the Reform Party stood up and basically under the protection of the House defamed a member of the Canadian Bar Association of Ontario. He did not have the guts to go outside and do the same thing. He should do that today. He has already received a letter from that lawyer saying if he does he will be sued for defamation.

Human Rights

[Bill Blaikie, NDP, Winnipeg—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, the Minister for International Trade will be aware of the conflict between the Pinochet led army and Chile's democratic government over the arrest of two army officers convicted of murder.

Pinochet's action in Chile reminds us that unless there is a level playing field when it comes to political rights and human rights, free trade is a moral hoax.

Is the government now considering supporting the proposal endorsed by the International Democratic Union, the Liberal International and the Socialist International to create a UN based international court of human rights to bring those who have violated international human rights to justice?

Will the government indicate its intentions to work for a social and human rights clause in NAFTA and in the WTO so we can have a genuine playing field, not just with respect to tariffs but with respect to human rights?

[Roy MacLaren, Liberal, Minister for International Trade]

Mr. Speaker, the terms with regard to the accession of Chile to NAFTA are set forth in the agreement. A country acceding to NAFTA must meet the terms of the agreement.

There are other forums in which we pursue the questions of human rights and we shall continue to do so.