Debates of Nov. 26th, 1996

Auditor General's Report

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, that is the problem we run into with this government. Blinded by his own arrogance, it is impossible for the President of Treasury Board to admit his errors with humility. He simply cannot do it. Two billion and a half is nothing to sneeze at.

The auditor general has estimated that the government could have saved up to $1.25 billion just by managing its stocks better. How can the President of Treasury Board be boasting about putting public finances in order, when his neglecting to do an item-by-item examination of government expenditures has resulted, for Public Works and Government Services alone, in losses amounting to $1.25 billion?

[Marcel Massé, Liberal, President of the Treasury Board and Minister responsible for Infrastructure]

Mr. Speaker, it is certain that there is always room for improvement in all questions relating to management, whether in the private sector or in government. However, the federal government has implemented two years ago a comprehensive program review which the auditor general found to be excellent.

Yes, there are problems with certain aspects of our management. In order to give a clearer picture of the tone of the auditor general's report, in the very area referred to by the leader of the opposition, stock management, here is what the auditor general said in his report: "We are encouraged by initiatives taken by the departments and currently in place. Major efforts are now under way in some organizations which have reviewed and simplified their policies and now have a clearer definition of their role, their responsibilities and their expenditures. We draw particular attention to the efforts made to capitalize many items which were previously incorrectly recorded under stock management".

You can see that the auditor general himself supports our efforts.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, I used to be a teacher, and I have had students like the minister, who justified getting 6 per cent on an exam by saying that they had improved a great deal since last time, when they got zero. That is not good enough.

It is not good enough because, while the government is claiming to have done this exercise with great conscientiousness, a great deal of work, at the same time the Minister of National Defence, and former Minister of Human Resources, was cutting benefits to all of Canada's unemployed. While he was making those cuts, the President of Treasury Board was calmly examining expenditures, and another $2.5 billion were wasted.

The government has overspent the information technologies budget by $300 million. How can the President of Treasury Board, who is responsible for good government administration, justify such a terrible performance in his own department, having gone more than 30 per cent over budget?

[Marcel Massé, Liberal, President of the Treasury Board and Minister responsible for Infrastructure]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. Leader of the Opposition refers to one area, information technology, which is currently being developed and which is rife with problems for all governments, whatever the country, here or in the United States.

At this time we are busy trying to fine tune information systems so as to decrease the cost overages which sometimes occur.

In order to place the words of the Leader of the Opposition in proper perspective I refer you to what the auditor general had to say: "Our office-the office of the auditor general-supports the use of information technologies in order to control costs and improve services, and we endorse the efforts of the Treasury Board Secretariat to develop an improved framework for managing information and technology projects".

The Environment

[Pierre De Savoye, Bloc, Portneuf, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Deputy Prime Minister.

This morning, the auditor general discussed environmental issues. Regarding the 5,000 contaminated federal sites, the auditor general expressed his concern about the fact that the government was still unable to assess the health, safety and environmental risks and costs.

Considering that according to certain preliminary estimates, cost would total $2 billion, not including the cost related to radioactive waste, and also considering that the public's health is at stake, when will the Deputy Prime Minister see to it that her government proceeds with the assessment requested by the auditor general?

[Marcel Massé, Liberal, President of the Treasury Board and Minister responsible for Infrastructure]

Mr. Speaker, the auditor general made it clear, in referring to contamination problems which depend a lot on modern technology, that he wanted us to make a more exhaustive list of contaminated sites and the costs involved in cleaning up those sites.

That is exactly what we are doing now. Many departments have already started to compile these lists. It is sometimes very difficult to estimate the costs, but we are now setting up the requisite lists, with a description of the sites and estimates.

[Pierre De Savoye, Bloc, Portneuf, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to take advantage of the government's mellow mood to talk about radioactive waste. For five years, the auditor general has accused Atomic Energy of Canada Limited of failing to declare its environmental liabilities in its financial statements. And for five years, AECL has ignored repeated requests by the auditor general.

Is the Deputy Prime Minister prepared to promise, on behalf of the government, that she will urge AECL to act quickly on the repeated requests of the auditor general that AECL declare its environmental liabilities in its financial statements?

[Anne McLellan, Liberal, Minister of Natural Resources]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his question.

Let me assure him that AECL takes the comments of the auditor general as it relates to radioactive waste very seriously. A few weeks ago I met with the auditor general. I have discussed his concerns with my colleague, the Minister of Finance, and working together we are going to provide a solution to this problem in the very near future.

Canadian Airlines

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, in the last week I have visited five provinces, flying on Canadian Airlines most of the way.

Surely it is important to this House that Canadian Airlines not only survives but that it is prosperous for the benefit of its workers, its investors and the travelling public.

We are all well aware that the Canadian government's balance sheet is worse than Canadian's, but one constructive thing the

federal government can do to help is to ensure that Canadian Airlines operates on a level playing field both at home and abroad.

Reform Party says no to government bailouts but we say no to federal government inaction.

My question is for the Deputy Prime Minister. What is this government doing to ensure a level playing field for Canadian Airlines International at home and abroad?

[Stan Keyes, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Transport]

Mr. Speaker, the government is saying the same line it has been saying for the last month. Canadian Airlines has to restructure in order to get on firm ground, in order to become a profitable company, in order to maximize its opportunities in this deregulated industry, in order to succeed. Quite frankly the government is not going to go there with a cheque.

The minister is there now facilitating discussions, doing everything he can, along with the Ministry of Transport, to see Canadian become a strong airline, along with Air Canada.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I assume that in that answer somewhere the government is in favour of a level playing field for Canadian at home and abroad. It is one of the things it can do.

We are wondering if there is not something the government can do in a practical sense to work out that commitment. One of the best ways for the federal government to make Canadian carriers more competitive is to cut the federal tax on fuel which costs them about $95 million a year, $32 million for Canadian alone.

The transportation minister said on Friday that he was open to lowering the federal tax on fuel and that he had had discussions with the Minister of Finance about it.

My question is for the Minister of Finance. Will he lower the federal tax on aviation fuel and if so, by how much?

[Stan Keyes, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Transport]

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Transport has indicated that everything except deregulation is on the table. Once Canadian Airlines has restructured, he will come together with the company and the Canadian employees who work for the six unions, once they have become stable, and consider any request that Canadian Airlines has to make.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

As the member mentions, Canadian Airlines has put several restructuring proposals on the table and four of its six unions are now on side. Two of the largest unions, as the member knows, the CAW and CUPE, still have some concerns, and that is fine. What concerns us is that so far they have made no commitment to let their membership vote on the company's proposals.

Not just 16,000 jobs are at stake, but the security of 16,000 families with homes and mortgages and bills to pay. Canadian employees should have every right to have a say directly in a vote on their own future.

My question is for the Minister of Labour. Will the government guarantee that every employee of Canadian will be able to vote on the company's restructuring proposals?

[Stan Keyes, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Transport]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to add to the hon. member's comments because they are most welcome.

The minister said yesterday while he was in Richmond that great contributions were made by the workforce at Canadian. They are great people and they run a good airline. The trouble is the airline is not profitable. It lost $1.2 billion over the last 10 years.

The addition I would like to make to the hon. member's question is that the leadership of the Canadian Auto Workers and CUPE have forgotten that it is not just the employees at Canadian Airlines who are taxpayers. The government also has a responsibility to look after the interests of all Canadian taxpayers: in my riding, the member's riding and every riding in the country. It has to ensure that their investment is looked after and that they are protected as well.

That is why we are encouraged and looking forward to the restructuring plan of Canadian. In that way the Canadian taxpayers are looked after as well as the 16,500 employees of Canadian of whom the hon. member speaks.

Krever Commission

[Pauline Picard, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Deputy Prime Minister.

Yesterday, the Deputy Prime Minister stated in this House that her government was legally obliged to withhold the documents sought by the Krever commission. Section 39 of the Canada Evidence Act sets out no such obligation. Her own minister of justice in fact said it was possible to obtain documents from the years 1980 to 1984 under a special procedure, which involves applying to the Prime Minister of the time, namely, Pierre Elliott Trudeau and John Turner.

Is the Deputy Prime Minister prepared to undertake all the steps necessary to obtain the required authorizations to finally provide the documents to the Krever commission? In other words, is she prepared to seek the approval of her former leaders, Pierre Elliott Trudeau and John Turner, so we may finally know the truth about this tragedy?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Canadian Heritage]

Mr. Speaker, from the member's remarks, I understand her to say that there is currently a section 39 preventing the present government from revealing events in other cabinets, that of Mr. Mulroney and others.

[Pauline Picard, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Mr. Speaker, there is a procedure whereby the government may shed some light on the contaminated blood scandal, as her colleague the minister of justice clearly stated.

Could the Deputy Prime Minister tell us whether her government is refusing to act or whether former Prime Ministers Pierre Elliott Trudeau and John Turner are refusing to release the documents sought by Mr. Justice Krever?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Canadian Heritage]

Mr. Speaker, I would just repeat what I said yesterday in the House, which is, that section 39 of the Canada Evidence Act does not allow the present government to release confidential information concerning past governments including that of Mr. Mulroney and previous ones.

Taxation

[Jim Gouk, Reform, Kootenay West—Revelstoke, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Transport said that the government has a responsibility to the taxpayers. Canadian Airlines is a taxpayer and so are its employees.

The government extracts $95 million a year in federal fuel taxes from Canadian aviation companies, an input tax that was supposed to be taken away when the goods and services tax was introduced.

If the government is so concerned about Canadian taxpayers and Canadian jobs, why does it continue to extract this money from an industry that is in financial trouble?

[Stan Keyes, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Transport]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member seems to circumvent or just forget all about the real problem at Canadian Airlines.

Canadian Airlines is not making a profit. Canadian Airlines has to restructure. The people of Canada had to adjust to tough economic conditions by restructuring. Canadian Airlines has to do the same.

[Jim Gouk, Reform, Kootenay West—Revelstoke, BC]

Mr. Speaker, it is fine to say that Canadian Airlines has to restructure but there should be some light at the end of the tunnel. There should not be a government waiting there with their tax barrel to fill it back up again at aviation's expense.

Since the hon. member, in answer to a previous question, stated that he believes that all Canadian's employees should be entitled to vote, what exactly is the government doing to ensure that will happen?

[Stan Keyes, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Transport]

Mr. Speaker, the people who are members of CUPE and the CAW have to talk to their leadership and say: "We have heard what you have had to say. We have listened to your advice. Now we would like to put it to a vote". I think this is an issue that has to take place between the union membership and its leadership.

Criminal Code

[Michel Guimond, Bloc, Beauport—Montmorency—Orléans, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Justice.

Yesterday, the Minister of Justice explained his inaction in the matter of casinos on international cruises by saying we would have to await a request from the Government of Quebec. However, in 1995, the National Assembly of Quebec passed a bill in this regard and, on February 27, the Quebec justice minister did indeed make an official request in this regard in a letter to his federal counterpart.

How could the minister say yesterday that he had not received an official request from the Quebec minister of justice in this regard? Is the minister telling tales, or does he not know what is going on?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

No, Mr. Speaker, I was in error.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.