House of Commons Hansard #107 of the 35th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was elections.

Topics

Candu ReactorsOral Question Period

2:55 p.m.

Winnipeg South Centre Manitoba

Liberal

Lloyd Axworthy LiberalMinister of Foreign Affairs

Mr. Speaker, the question was answered previously by the Minister for International Trade.

To further elaborate for the hon. member, I would like to point out that the sale of the Candu reactors is being financed by crown corporations outside Canada. We have no intention under those rules, under the Canadian Environmental Assessment Act, to require that the Canadian rules be applied in other countries.

We know that the Candu itself is a safe reactor. It has been tested in our own concerns. China itself has signed all of the proper international safeguards and has done its own assessment. When we sell abroad we abide by the rules abroad. That is the basis by which we recognize the whole question of extraterritoriality. We do not want to apply that to other countries.

Candu ReactorsOral Question Period

2:55 p.m.

Reform

Paul Forseth Reform New Westminster—Burnaby, BC

Mr. Speaker, on November 7 the environment minister tabled orders in council for the Canadian Environmental Assessment Act so federal projects outside Canada are subject to an environmental review, except crown corporations, despite a Liberal promise to promote sustainable development throughout the world.

Will the minister explain why he purposely did not go the distance to table the necessary regulations to make crown corporations like Atomic Energy of Canada subject to environmental assessments?

Candu ReactorsOral Question Period

2:55 p.m.

Winnipeg South Centre Manitoba

Liberal

Lloyd Axworthy LiberalMinister of Foreign Affairs

Mr. Speaker, there is nothing like the enthusiasm of newfound converts. I recall quite distinctly not so long ago that the member along with all members of his party voted against the Canadian Environmental Assessment Act. Now he is claiming it as being sacred and sacrosanct. They cannot have it both ways.

I would point out for the member's education and edification that under the new regulations there are requirements for screening to take place for outside projects that can be triggered by the minister responsible. We are ensuring that there is a process in place.

The hon. member might want to go back to his own members with the same enthusiasm to support proper Canadian Environmental Assessment Act procedures in Canada.

TaxationOral Question Period

2:55 p.m.

Liberal

Anna Terrana Liberal Vancouver East, BC

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance.

Last week the minister announced changes to the Income Tax Act to prevent the use of certain tax shelters. These shelters have been used by the foreign film industry in British Columbia to raise funds for productions in my province.

Did the minister take into account the adverse effects these changes will have on the film industry in B.C.?

TaxationOral Question Period

2:55 p.m.

LaSalle—Émard Québec

Liberal

Paul Martin LiberalMinister of Finance

The answer to the question is yes, Mr. Speaker.

I certainly do understand the interest and the concern of the hon. member in posing this question. Foreign films are produced in Canada for a variety of reasons including the expertise and efficiency of Canadian production crews and more favourable production costs.

The changes we have brought about obviously do not change these fundamental factors. They simply make sure that those applying for the shelters match their expenses with their revenues. As the hon. member understands, these tax incentives are for public policy purposes and what we want to do is make sure that there is no leakage.

Employment InsuranceOral Question Period

2:55 p.m.

Bloc

Francine Lalonde Bloc Mercier, QC

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Human Resources Development.

The measures in the employment insurance reform that will have the most serious impact on the unemployed are going to be implemented in early January. However, not only are the regulations required to implement the act not ready, but there is also every indication that employment centre personnel, officers and managers will not get any training or guidelines before the act comes into effect.

Could the minister tell us when the regulations required to implement the new part of the employment insurance legislation will be ready and available?

Employment InsuranceOral Question Period

3 p.m.

Papineau—Saint-Michel Québec

Liberal

Pierre Pettigrew LiberalMinister of Human Resources Development

Mr. Speaker, I recently looked at this issue and I thank the hon. member for Mercier for her interest in it. I looked, among other things, at some interpretation documents concerning the act that will ensure everyone can properly inform beneficiaries in the coming weeks, since we are, of course, perfectly aware of the importance of the new interpretation.

These documents are being prepared. They are already circulating in a number of employment centres.

HealthOral Question Period

3 p.m.

Reform

Grant Hill Reform Macleod, AB

Mr. Speaker, we now know that there is a procedure under the Canada Evidence Act to get at these secret documents that the government is hiding. In fact, a prominent Osgoode law professor, Peter W. Hogg, says: "It is a matter of a competing balance of public interest". The public interest in this case is the health of blood infected Canadians; the government interest, secrecy on bad decisions.

Which minister will stand up today to defend government secrecy over public safety?

HealthOral Question Period

3 p.m.

Hamilton East Ontario

Liberal

Sheila Copps LiberalDeputy Prime Minister and Minister of Canadian Heritage

Mr. Speaker, I cannot understand why the member would extrapolate that I have any interest whatsoever in protecting Brian Mulroney.

Drug PatentsOral Question Period

3 p.m.

NDP

Bill Blaikie NDP Winnipeg—Transcona, MB

Mr. Speaker, I hate to add to the troubles of the Minister of Health, whose reputation as a progressive Liberal is already under a cloud of smoke.

I want to ask the Minister of Health whether he expects, or is working on the Minister of Finance in order to obtain, or whatever may be the case in Liberal circles, in order that another Liberal promise might be kept. Seventy-four per cent of Canadians would like them to keep the promise to do something about reducing the patent protection of drugs in order to bring down the cost of drugs

and save our health care system. That was a Liberal promise. It is one of the problems with our health care system. When is the Minister of Health going to act on that?

Drug PatentsOral Question Period

3 p.m.

Cape Breton—East Richmond Nova Scotia

Liberal

David Dingwall LiberalMinister of Health

Mr. Speaker, the member will be aware that the Patent Act comes under the jurisdiction of the Minister of Industry.

The hon. member should be aware that under the provisions of the Patent Act and particularly the Patented Medicines Review Board the companies which are responsible thereto have lived up to their commitments in terms of keeping the price below the CPI. They have also lived up to their commitments with regard to the moneys they had earmarked for the purposes of research in this country. So on those two points they have lived up to their commitments.

However, the hon. member is correct that drug pricing in this country is all too high in many jurisdictions and I hope that we can co-operate with the provinces, including the province of Saskatchewan, where they might delegate the powers to the Patented Medicines Review Board so that we might have a full study of pricing both for generic and brand names in this country.

Presence In GalleryOral Question Period

November 26th, 1996 / 3 p.m.

The Speaker

I draw to members' attention the presence in the gallery of the Hon. Lorne Calvert, Minister of Social Services and Minister responsible for Seniors from the Legislative Assembly of Saskatchewan.

Presence In GalleryOral Question Period

3 p.m.

Some hon. members

Hear, hear.

The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-63, an act to amend the Canada Elections Act and the Referendum Act, be read the third time and passed.

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

3:05 p.m.

The Speaker

We are on debate and the hon. member for Fraser Valley East has the floor. According to our records, he has approximately seven minutes left and five minutes questions and comments.

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

3:05 p.m.

Reform

Chuck Strahl Reform Fraser Valley East, BC

Mr. Speaker, when we broke for question period-the aptly named question period, not answer period, because of course, as usual, there were no answers-I was in the middle of explaining to the government side exactly what was wrong with the democratic system as we have it today.

We are debating something today that deals with Parliament, referendums and elections. However, whenever one talks referendum to these Liberal government members, their eyes just roll back in their heads, they take another rum toddy and go to sleep. They do not want to talk about referendums. Referendums are somehow poisonous and anathema to this group but I do not know why.

When we talk about electoral reforms along the notion of the private member's bill by the member for Kindersley-Lloydminister which concerns fixed election dates, the Liberals' eyes roll back in their heads. I do not know what they fear. Maybe they fear that some sort of tremor might run through the electorate, that they would actually know when to plan for an election and they will not consider it.

We talk about things like the process we have come through to get to this stage today, where we are talking about an elections act that should have been brought about with consensus building and co-operation of all parties, opposition and government side, and by taking ample time to consult Canadians. Instead we find a government that has had Mr. Kingsley's report since April and instead of bringing it to Parliament or bringing it to committee we find it is invoking time allocation so that we are not allowed to debate it.

Not only that, but it is being pushed through with such haste that today the government is back again asking for unanimous consent to amend what we passed yesterday because there is not enough time to get it into the regular process for the amendments to even be debated in the House.

What a sad sack way of trying to bring all-party consensus and all-party co-operation to a bill. Ram it through, ask for amendments after the fact, limit debate, do not let parliamentarians talk about it and do not even let Canadians comment on it through the committee or the parliamentary system. That is a shame.

As has been noted earlier, there have been some improvements to this bill in the amendments. We asked for a 30 day cooling off period before a byelection can be held and we got 11 days. I guess that is something. It is 11 more than what was in the original bill.

The other part of this bill that we have trouble with, the part that is again not acceptable and was not even part of the original bill, has to do with the staggered voting hours. The government feels somehow that by getting British Columbians to finish their voting by 7 p.m. that will solve the feeling in B.C. of western alienation.

As usual, the government thinks that as long as we keep everything the same for Quebec and Ontario voters and adjust the schedule of the voters in Atlantic Canada and the west that everything is fair. I guess it is fair to the government, but it does not address the real issue, which is fair voting hours. We put forward several proposals with respect to that issue, none of which is in the bill. They were not even in private member's Bill C-307, standing in the name of the hon. member for Vancouver East. I do not know from where this concoction came. I guess it came from Manila in a long distance phone call. It is a lousy way to put together a bill.

If some of the greater questions of parliamentary reform, elections reform, the funding of political parties, the timing of elections and the timing of byelections so that people are not left unrepresented had been addressed in a serious way it would have been much easier to support the bill.

There are some measures of the bill which we like. A permanent voters list is a good idea. If the government had listened to our amendment and put it off until August instead of April, it could have saved tens of millions of dollars. Instead the list must be completed by April, which means an extra enumeration, out of sync, which will cost much more money. That is too bad.

If the government had listened to our byelection proposals it would have been much fairer to opposition parties and to the people in those ridings who would have had to wait a maximum of six months before their next member of Parliament was elected to represent them.

If the government had listened in times past to our calls for a fixed election date so that no advantage is given to the party which forms the government, again, that would have had huge grassroots support. Instead we have a bill which is like a halfway step across a chasm. It looks good but it is too bad that the government did not grab this opportunity, which may be its last before the next election, to address some of the serious problems which Canadians want addressed in the Canada Elections Act.

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

3:10 p.m.

Liberal

John Bryden Liberal Hamilton—Wentworth, ON

Mr. Speaker, I listened to the hon. member for Fraser Valley East with great interest. I know he thinks carefully about the future of Canada and that the future of Canada is very close to his heart.

I have sat on this side of the House, surrounded by members of the Bloc Quebecois, for nearly a year and I have come to realize that many of the members of the Bloc Quebecois are not exactly separatists but are better described as sovereignists. Their vision of the future for Canada is with the provinces having independent powers, short of a shared passport and a shared currency. They want the central government to be reduced to the point where it is as weak as possible relative to the provincial governments.

I would ask the member for Fraser Valley East what is the difference between his vision of Canada and the sovereignist vision of the Bloc Quebecois. Is it not true that the Reform Party wants to diminish the role of Ottawa in the daily life of Canadians and make the provinces all powerful? The provinces could be like British Columbia, which has a new NDP government that did not tell the truth. It does not necessarily follow that we can be guaranteed as Canadians that provincial governments always will be the better form of government in this country.

What is the difference between his position as a Reformer, insisting that Ottawa be diminished as much as possible, to nothing more than an institution that looks after trade and passports, giving all the power to the provinces, and that of the Bloc Quebecois? What is the difference between Mr. Manning and Mr. Bouchard, if I may ask?

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

3:10 p.m.

The Speaker

The hon. member said "Mr. Manning". I presume this is the man who sits in our House and is the leader of the Reform Party.

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

3:15 p.m.

Reform

Chuck Strahl Reform Fraser Valley East, BC

Mr. Speaker, I suppose I have three or four minutes to answer this question. I could go on for 35 minutes about the differences between Mr. Bouchard and the leader of the third party.

I could go on for the same length of time about the similarities or some of the similar aims of the Liberal Party and the separatist party. I could talk about the way they want to carve Canada into two separate blocs. We are going to have the distinct society of Quebec and then the rest.

I could talk about the fact that when it comes to the welfare system in British Columbia there is a residency requirement. The Liberal government levied a $30 million fine. The Quebec government has a different standard for tuition for university students outside of their province and what does the Liberal government say? Oh well, Quebecers will be Quebecers. We must live with it. In other words, the Liberals seem to think it is okay to treat Quebec separately and different, give them some kind of special treatment, but that is not the big issue.

What is the big issue? If the answer to keeping Canada together is to spend a lot, intrude into provincial territory and force programs on the provincial governments whether they like it or not, or if the answer is to treat one province differently than the other, or when a crisis comes throw money at it, for example Bombardier, but we will not worry about Canadian Airlines, then I suppose Canada would be a unified country that is solidly together and looking to Ottawa for great leadership.

What has happened over the last 25 years? We have a $600 billion debt. We have an intrusive federal government. We cannot now even get agreement on a national day care plan. Why? Because no province trusts the federal government any more. They say the federal government will start the program, yank the funding and they will be left holding the bag.

Now the provinces do not trust the federal government because it is not able to carry through with its financing, because it will not carry through with its promises to the point where the provinces, not just Quebec, but all the provinces are saying if this is federalism, if this is the answer then why on earth should they keep throwing money at Ottawa?

The Reform's vision of Canada is of a country which restricts its role in certain areas. Would it not be great for the federal government to do eight or ten functions really well? Would it not be great to have unanimity among the provinces and the Canadian public to say: "Do you think you should have an overriding role for the environment?" Yes, because environmental concerns cross provincial borders.

I would rather leave the promotion of culture to the Quebecois or the people in British Columbia as they see fit. The minister of culture here does not even know what culture is. If you ask her to define culture she does not even know what Canadian culture is.

What the hon. member is saying about separatism of course is nonsense. The way to hold the country together is to do fewer things, do them well, pay your way, do not ask your grandchildren to pay your debts and keep the country together by doing the necessary things well rather than doing many things poorly.

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

3:15 p.m.

The Speaker

Will the hon. member for Parkdale-High Park be speaking 20 minutes or will he be sharing his time with another member?

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

3:15 p.m.

Liberal

Jesse Flis Liberal Parkdale—High Park, ON

Mr. Speaker, I shall be sharing my time with the hon. member for Cumberland-Colchester.

I shall keep my remarks brief because two parliamentary standing committees are waiting for my presence there also.

I am pleased that I have the opportunity to speak to Bill C-63, an act to amend the Canada Elections Act and the Referendum Act. This bill is greatly needed as it modernizes and improves the efficiency of our electoral administration. I am very pleased that this bill has been brought forward as I have believed for quite some time that it was necessary because of our inefficient enumeration process.

During every election we hear horror stories of residents of entire streets and whole apartment buildings not being enumerated. Many voters are omitted because they are travelling or working odd shifts during the enumeration period. Yet other voters are not enumerated because of language barriers or because they simply do not want to open their doors due to security concerns. It is sad but many people are afraid to open their doors when they are knocked on late in the evening. As a result they do not get enumerated. Others do not discover the omission of their names until they arrive at the polls on election day.

That is why on December 13, 1988, after the election, I urged Parliament to approve the following recommendations: first, to develop a registration process to establish permanent voters lists; second, to approve election day voter's registration in urban areas, the same right that is given to rural voters. Implementation of the latter recommendation has prevented discrimination against urban voters and guarantees Canadian voters their citizenship rights. It is our duty as parliamentarians to make it easier for citizens to vote, not to place obstacles in their way. Bill C-63 does just that.

I am pleased to see that through Bill C-63 a permanent voters register will be created. That will solve many of the problems I mentioned. The bill will pave the way to a 1997 election campaign based on 36 days as opposed to the current 47 days. This is an excellent move for it will save the federal government and the Canadian taxpayers a sum of $30 million per federal election.

The shortened election period will generate approximately $8 million of the $30 million savings to the Canadian taxpayers for each federal election. By having the permanent register with a shortened election period we can expect significant cost savings. Another benefit that results from this bill is that the permanent register can be shared with provinces, municipalities and school boards for their elections which would generate even more savings for Canadians.

Sharing and pooling resources makes a lot of sense. The permanent register of voters will be updated using data from Revenue Canada, lists of new Canadian citizens from Citizenship and Immigration Canada and from provincial and territorial motor vehicle and vital statistics data.

It is worth noting, as the bill states, that the register will be established from information collected by enumeration, but will be held outside the electoral period. Between electoral events these lists will be updated. No longer will Canadians be left off voters lists because of the short enumeration period and the obstacles I described earlier.

Bill C-63 is very convenient. When an election is called the preliminary lists will be distributed within five days of the issuing of the writs. Election expense limits will be available 31 days before polling day as opposed to the 24 days under the current

legislation. This will allow the candidate to assess earlier what his or her expense limits are.

The objects of Bill C-63 and the amendments are very clear: to make our electoral administration more practical and efficient. As someone who has campaigned as a Liberal candidate in five elections, winning four and losing one, I applaud the government for this bill and I am certain that Canadians will support it as well. I am pleased we will have good support from the opposition parties on this bill.

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

3:20 p.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Ontario, ON

Mr. Speaker, I was pleased to hear the wise and tested comments of the hon. member for Parkdale-High Park. I recall one of his first campaigns when I was barely in high school. Of course he was successful. As he indicated, he has seen many elections in the past.

Could the hon. member provide a few other illustrations of how he believes a permanent voters' list might be able to assist us in not only realizing economies of scale as far as the federal and provincial governments working together but also in confirming at least for the voters that they can make their minds up in 37 days? They do not need 47 days. Perhaps the hon. member would like to provide some greater wisdom to the House of Commons of his own experiences, notwithstanding, of course, yours, Mr. Speaker.

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

3:25 p.m.

Liberal

Jesse Flis Liberal Parkdale—High Park, ON

I appreciate that question. My advice to Canadians would be that the day they become old enough to vote is the day to start taking an interest in the established parties. I advise young students who reach voting age that they do not have to vote for me because I am running as the Liberal candidate. My advice is to study all the parties and get involved, join the local association, be it the Parkdale-High Park association, be it the Conservative association, the New Democratic Party association, the Green Party, or the Reform Party. They should get involved early, study what each party stands for and then see if the ideology, the philosophy, the vision of that party meets what their vision is for Canada.

The people sitting in the House do not put all of this energy into getting elected for ourselves. We are building a future country for our children, their children, their grandchildren and so on. It is people like former Prime Minister Laurier who had such visions, Prime Minister Lester B. Pearson who had such visions. Our present Prime Minister has such a vision for the future of Canada. This is why he is travelling abroad as Team Canada.

I advise the young people not to wait for the writ to be called, and not to wait to be enumerated. They should have their minds already made up. Then when the writ is called, I think that is when they should attend all candidates meetings. That is where they can study the literature.

I do not think they need more than a month to decide, to be able to say that yes, that is the party, that is the candidate that they are going to vote for.

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

3:25 p.m.

Liberal

Dianne Brushett Liberal Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise in the House today to support Bill C-63, an act to amend the Canada Elections Act. The bottom line is that this legislation is good news for taxpayers. It is good news because it will make election campaigns shorter and simpler and it will save Canadians money.

The purpose of this legislation is to establish a permanent voters' list. This list will be used for federal general elections, byelections, referendums, municipal and provincial elections, even school board elections and will eliminate the need for door to door enumeration.

Above all, it reduces overlap and duplication. For many years there has been considerable interest and support for the idea of a permanent voters' list. Indeed, a great deal of research has gone into determining the best system to bring Canada in line with other Commonwealth countries.

As Patrick Boyer writes in "Election Law in Canada," no other country has a system where the lists of voters are prepared afresh on a systematic basic and so close to the time of voting as does Canada. While it is true that our current system produces extremely accurate voters' lists it is also the most expensive component of the election process.

There would be one last enumeration done in the spring of 1997. Currently in most provinces all three levels of government spend resources compiling their own voters' lists. This results in considerable duplication and expense. In these times of economic responsibility and fiscal restraint all levels of government must learn to work together on behalf of the Canadian taxpayer and there is only one. We must produce legislation and policies that are both cost efficient and effective.

That is what Bill C-63 is all about. It is in the spirit of restraint and responsibility that election officials from across the country have expressed a willingness to explore options and possibilities for establishing this permanent and shared voters' list. The province of British Columbia has successfully employed a permanent and shared voters' list since 1946 and several other provinces are currently working on establishing similar registers of data.

Establishing a permanent voters list will reduce the cost of an election by eliminating door to door enumeration and also by shortening the time of the election campaign. Door to door enumeration is the single largest cost of an electoral event. It is extremely labour intensive and must be completed within a very demanding short time frame. In addition, the public is often

inconvenienced by enumeration, particularly when the same information is being sought by several levels of government.

The realities of the 1990s dictate that fewer people are at home during the daytime, forcing enumerators to make their rounds in the evening. Given that much of this work is done on foot, this raises security concerns for enumerators and makes residents more reluctant to participate. A permanent voters list would also help to ensure the inclusion of people who are not at home during the enumeration period and on election day.

While some concerns have been raised that a permanent voters register would eliminate thousands of jobs for enumerators at election time, it is important to realize that other more permanent jobs would be created at the registry offices across the country.

Concerns have also been voiced about the privacy and confidentiality of the list and the information it will contain. Canadians need not worry. The permanent register will only contain the elector's name, mailing address, municipal address, electoral district, gender and date of birth, all of which will be updated using existing federal and provincial data sources. There will be legislative and administrative safeguards to guarantee that the list can only be used for electoral purposes. In addition, individuals with privacy concerns will be able to opt out of the permanent list.

The most important advantage of a permanent voters list is undeniably the money it will save Canadian taxpayers. Indeed, the projected cost savings to the federal government will total $30 million per electoral event by eliminating the need for door to door enumeration.

Bill C-63 will also allow the election period to be shortened from 47 days to a more efficient time of 36 days. A shorter campaign will still allow voters an opportunity to get to know the candidates and their policies. At the same time, it will eliminate time for campaign rhetoric. How often have we heard the public say enough is enough, get on with the vote. Candidates will have to be effective and efficient in their use of campaign time which is exactly how it should be. The shorter campaign period will save the government and taxpayers an additional $8 million per election.

There is widespread support for this initiative across the country. In fact, a survey conducted by Elections Canada in 1996 found that over 90 per cent of Canadians responded and supported the idea of a permanent register. Representatives from three recognized parties in this House have indicated their support in principle for Bill C-63.

While our current method of enumeration is highly accurate, the cost of the system in terms of financial and human resources is too high to be maintained. That is why this government is looking ahead and planning for the future of the democratic process. Now is the time to implement a more effective and more efficient system, one that is keeping pace with technology and with other Commonwealth countries and one that will save taxpayers almost $40 million in the next election alone.

For these reasons, I urge all hon. members in this House to join with me in supporting Bill C-63 and supporting these cost saving and efficient measures that will guarantee engendering taxpayers' support in the democratic process.

Canada Elections ActGovernment Orders

3:30 p.m.

Bloc

Gilbert Fillion Bloc Chicoutimi, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to point out to my colleague across the way that, after all she has said about this bill, I think she has left out the most important part. For us, the most important part is the funding of political parties. The bill is silent on this topic. You have, of course, been aware of the Bloc Quebecois's position from the beginning.

The Bloc Quebecois has always fiercely defended the principle by which political parties must get their funding from individual contributions. The bill before us today does not spell this out.

In addition, the political funding of the Bloc Quebecois is not determined by this legislation, but by the legislation governing political parties in Quebec. Accordingly, funding may come only from voters, the only ones entitled to make political contributions.

Thus, having established this principle, we are not at the mercy of organizations and corporations that could, by making very large contributions to campaign funds, blackmail, as it were, those holding power.

I would like to ask my colleague why she did not make the point to her caucus that her party should add a funding policy to the Canada Elections Act that would limit contributions to voters alone?