Debates of March 14th, 1996

Trade

[The Speaker]

This brings question period to a close.

Business Of The House

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I have a difficult question for the government House leader: What is the legislative agenda for the next few days?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure for me to provide details on the business of the House for the next few days. The hon. member's question undoubtedly has a very political ring to it today.

Tomorrow shall be an opposition day. On Monday we intend to call the budget debate. Last week I indicated we would call the budget debate on Tuesday but if, as it now appears, we fail to reach Government Orders today, we will then have an opposition day on Tuesday. Wednesday shall also be an opposition day.

On Thursday we intend to deal with legislation. I will consult my colleagues opposite on this early next week. However, I can tell the House now that the highest priorities are Bill C-3, the bill on collective bargaining in the nuclear power plant industry, Bill C-10, the borrowing authority bill and Bill C-14, the transportation bill.

Points Of Order

[Peter Milliken, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Mr. Speaker, several members have been asking about the presence in the gallery of a group of 45 officer cadets-

-from the Royal Military College, in Kingston, who are here with their professor, Yvon Gagnon. Their class is studying Canadian government.

They are not to be confused with 24 members of 792 Wing Squadron Air Cadets who are here from Iroquois Falls sitting in the same gallery.

[Some hon. members]

Hear, hear.

[The Speaker]

I am glad that the hon. member brought this to the attention of the House. We were all wondering about that.

The House resumed consideration of the motion, the amendment and the sub-amendment.

Privilege

[The Speaker]

The hon. member for Verchères has the floor. You have 12 minutes left.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Verchères, QC]

Mr. Speaker, before oral question period, I was saying that the communiqué released by the hon. member for Charlesbourg was very appropriate, since it points out a number of values that we share with our fellow Canadians, such as the will to take part in peacekeeping missions, to continue to be a member of NATO, to comply with the requirement of democracy, and to respect civil liberties and human rights.

There is nothing wrong with that. The communiqué released by the hon. member for Charlesbourg simply says:

The day after a yes win-

We have to be careful here. "The day after a yes win" does not mean the very next morning; what it really means is "following a yes win", Quebec would offer:

all Quebecers serving in the Canadian Forces the chance to integrate into the Quebec forces-

As I said, this can certainly not be interpreted as a call for desertion, rebellion or revolt. On the contrary, this communiqué merely sets the record straight regarding the defence policy of a sovereign Quebec.

The military do not live on another planet. They, like the rest of Quebecers, were around during the referendum campaign. Just like a number of federal public servants, they wondered about their future, if Quebec became a sovereign state.

The purpose of the communiqué released by the hon. member for Charlesbourg was simply to ease the legitimate concerns and fears of Quebecers serving in the Canadian Armed Forces.

I also want to point out that the communiqué reads: "-offer all Quebecers serving in the Canadian Forces". It does not refer to "French speaking Quebecers serving in the Canadian Forces", as claimed in the insidious Reform Party motion. The communiqué alludes to all Quebecers serving in the Canadian Forces.

What brings Quebecers to join the Canadian Armed Forces? Some do it for adventure and travel. Others do it out of a deep sense of duty, because they are convinced that, some day, they may have to defend and protect our freedom, our democratic values, but also their property, their close friends, their families.

Where do you think is home for these Quebecers who decide to join the Canadian Armed Forces? Where do their close friends and family live? In Quebec, Mr. Speaker.

But in our current constitutional system, how can we defend our assets, our close friends and our families who live in Quebec? How can we defend Quebec, if not by joining the Canadian Armed Forces?

Those who join the Canadian Armed Forces in order to be able to indirectly defend Quebec are not being disloyal towards Canada for all that. For them, being for Quebec does not necessarily mean being against Canada.

I for one was an officer in the Canadian Armed Forces and I can tell you that I was honourably released from my commmission as lieutenant in the navy when I was elected. I did not quit the armed forces on principle or because I believed that I had to quit since I had been elected to the House of Commons as a member of the Bloc Quebecois. I quit because I felt I would no longer have the time to carry out my duties within the Canadian Armed Forces.

However, I was able to see that, within the Canadian Armed Forces, we have a sort of microcosm, a scaled-down version of Quebec society. There are as many sovereignists in the Canadian Armed Forces as there are federalists. And that is no reason to think that members of the Canadian Armed Forces who are sovereignists are therefore disloyal, or opposed to Canada, or that, as our Reform Party colleagues would have us believe, they might want to take up the arms provided to them by the Canadian Armed Forces and turn against Canada. That is utterly ridiculous.

It is no secret to anyone that francophones in the Canadian Armed Forces have too often been downtrodden and discriminated against. Even today, we still hear older Canadians claiming that francophones did not want to fight in the second world war. Despite the betrayal in 1942 by the federal government, which, having promised not to do so, imposed conscription through a referendum, again leaving Quebec isolated from the rest of Canada, despite this betrayal, many Quebecers joined the Canadian forces of the time, the army, the navy and the air force, and fought in all theatres of operation.

There were Quebecers in Hong Kong at the time of the terrible assault by the Japanese and some of them spent the rest of the war in internment camps.

Les Fusiliers Mont-Royal were on the beaches at Dieppe. They were mowed down during the terrible assault in which the British, it was said, were ready to fight to the last drop of Canadian blood. Le Régiment de Maisonneuve was on the beaches of Normandy at the time of the landing. The 22nd regiment fought in the bloody battle of Monte Cassino, in Italy.

Quebecers proved their loyalty to Canada as part of the Canadian forces. They have proven their loyalty all these years. This does not prevent some, many many in fact, from believing that Quebec should become sovereign some day. And, with Quebec's sovereignty, it should come as no surprise that these Quebecers would take the opportunity afforded them to join the Quebec armed forces, without any resentment, disdain or negative feelings toward Canada. There is nothing surprising in that.

Our friends in the Reform Party wanted to create a tempest in a teapot with this debate, which is totally unnecessary and inappropriate. As I pointed out at the start of the debate, they used, they appropriated the rules of the House of Commons to successfully divert the regular debates of this House in an effort to put the Bloc Quebecois and my colleague for Charlesbourg on trial.

Once the members of the government have become the accomplices of the Reformers, when the vote comes up, the matter will probably be referred to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. There, God knows the treatment that will be given this ordinary communiqué by my colleague for Charlesbourg, which was simply to explain to our fellow Quebecers in the Canadian armed forces what the sovereignists had in mind on the subject of national defence and the possibility of their joining the ranks of the Canadian forces, in the event of sovereignty.

What treatment awaits this communiqué? No rule has been established in this debate on its treatment. Will our colleague for Charlesbourg be hauled before this committee for some sort of trial? Will this be a remake of the unfortunate Louis Riel episode? Except, of course, for the fact that my colleague from Charlesbourg

cannot be found guilty by the Canadian courts, since-as our colleague, the leader of the Reform Party, admitted-there are no legal grounds for criminal proceedings.

But this committee will become a kind of kangaroo court, before which my colleague from Charlesbourg will probably have to appear to explain his actions and say that he simply wanted, as part of a democratic process, to inform our fellow citizens in the Canadian Forces of what the sovereignists had in mind for them.

This is totally unacceptable in a so-called democratic country like ours. However, when the leader of the Reform Party says that we in this House are defining a new form of sedition, I wonder if our colleague is not being tried for his opinions. In a democratic country like Canada, it is normal for us-in a debate, in a referendum-to tell all Quebecers, including those in the Canadian Forces, about the consequences of a yes win in the referendum.

Our fellow citizens in Quebec needed to know about the possible consequences and benefits of a yes win in the referendum. Our vision is still alive. The very close vote recorded on October 30 makes it very clear that the issue has not been settled yet and that we will eventually have to consult the people of Quebec once again. Mr. Speaker, you can be sure that, once again, we will show all our cards, as the government party is demanding, and that we will explain to all Quebecers, including those in the military, what we have in mind for them.

[Leon Benoit, Reform, Vegreville, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I rise today to address an issue of extreme importance, the motion which addresses contempt of Parliament.

As an elected member of Parliament I take my job and this institution very seriously. An elected representative is just that, a person elected to represent their constituents. The government has forsaken this fundamental democratic principle for political expediency.

It has been established that the hon. member for Charlesbourg, a member of the defence committee, released a communiqué on the letterhead of the office of the Leader of the Opposition on October 26, 1995. It invited Quebec members of the Canadian Armed Forces to join the Quebec military in the event of a yes vote in the referendum.

The original Reform motion called for a recognition that in the opinion of the House this action should be viewed as seditious, offensive and in contempt of Parliament.

The issue is not only whether an action by the hon. member was offensive to the public. However, judging by the number of letters and phone calls I have received it certainly has been deemed to be offensive to the public. The issue is not even whether the action of the hon. member was seditious in the sense of sections 53, 59 or 62 of the Criminal Code. Rather, the issue is whether in the opinion of the House the actions of the member should be viewed as being offensive and seditious in nature.

By allowing the motion to proceed in its original form the House will not simply be determining whether a member should be disciplined for actions offensive to the House and to all Canadians, it will permit the House to consider through an examination by the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs guidelines for all members in terms of what their constituents deem acceptable and unacceptable conduct with respect to urging members of the Canadian Armed Forces to break ranks and to join, in this case, the Quebec army.

These guidelines will clarify for the record what is acceptable and unacceptable conduct. This will protect Bloc members, their constituents and their province as much as it will protect all other Canadians.

Without such guidelines the door is wide open for future mistakes to occur. It is important to all of us to ensure the guidelines are as clearly as possible laid out in law.

This is a difficult issue to deal with. The Liberal policy for making difficult decisions is not to make them. Its mantra of ignore and it will go away has not only shut out Canadians, it nearly cost us our country. Canadians expect their government to listen to their concerns and to take appropriate action. The government has proven time and again that it is not interested in the wishes of its electorate. It has followed its own mandate, many times in direct opposition to its constituents and the majority of Canadians.

On this issue the actions of the hon. member for Charlesbourg, on Mr. Bouchard's letterhead, have been ignored. The hon. member for Charlesbourg sent a communiqué inviting Quebec born soldiers of the Canadian Armed Forces to break ranks and join the Quebec national militia. This act has been viewed as a contempt of Parliament.

The issue of sedition has been raised. The courts have decided according to the Criminal Code of Canada that these actions are not seditious. The definition is quite clear that violence against a state must be involved.

What we are asking of the House is that the seditious nature of this action be reviewed by the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs and that a decision be rendered. We are not seeking to restrict free speech. We are not out on a witch hunt to rid

the House of Bloc members. We are seeking clear parameters regarding the conduct of parliamentarians.

Members opposite were in full favour of the same committee creating rules of conduct and penalties for members of Parliament. Now, because this issue is contentious and of great concern to all Canadians, they refuse to take a stand and allow it to be dealt with. We were elected to this place to make difficult decisions, so let us make them.

My grandfather was born in Nicolet, Quebec near Trois-Rivières in 1867, the same year Canada became a country. He believed in democracy and valued the freedom and opportunity Canada has offered.

In his 105 years on this earth my grandfather would not have tolerated the actions of the member for Charlesbourg, nor do the constituents of Vegreville tolerate it. They have asked me again and again why this issue has not been dealt with in the House of Commons by the Liberal government. How can I answer? The government refuses to deal with the issue. Once again the job of government has been left up to Reform.

The government illustrates all that is wrong with politics today. It has attained the same enviable level of arrogance, greed and non-democratic practices as its predecessors. Canadians shouted loud and clear in the last election that the political practices of the past would no longer be tolerated. Yet this government continues the same old style of politics. It is obvious the government's memory is as short as its actions.

Canadians are regarded around the world for their patience, tolerance and understanding. There is, however, a limit to these virtues. There comes a time when enough is enough and the line must be drawn. That time is now.

The Canadian people cried out in shock when the Bloc Quebecois became Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition. The idea of a political party whose mandate is to break up the country holding seats in the House of Commons was bad enough, but adding official opposition status to the mix had Canadians crying treason.

A responsible government would have listened to these fears and responded by clearly defining the role of the official opposition; a role intended to protect the interests of Canadians from irresponsible government, a role as government in waiting. Not this government. It was happy to have a separatist official opposition rather than one that would hold it accountable to Canadians.

The Bloc took the oath of office and promised to uphold, not abuse, the office of loyal opposition. A few months later the then leader of the official opposition began taking official visits to foreign countries. While on these visits, funded by Canadian taxpayers, he sought foreign recognition for a sovereign Quebec. This was clearly an abuse of the position of leader of the opposition and not in the best interest of Canadians.

A responsible government would have sought an inquiry to investigate this use of Canadian tax dollars and parliamentary influence. Not this government. It has no respect for the hard earned tax dollars of Canadians. It partook in some name calling and refused to take action. The leader of the opposition used the influence of his office to wage a war of words against Canada in order to facilitate his goal of separation. A responsible government would have clearly defined the consequences, terms and conditions of separation and addressed other issues that are important to all Canadians across the country. Not this government. It fed right into the separatist agenda. Its inaction almost proved fatal for the country we cherish so much.

Now the actions of the member for Charlesbourg have left unchallenged and unpunished by the government an event which took place during the referendum campaign. A member of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition, also a member of the Standing Committee on Defence, abused his elected position by encouraging members of the Canadian Armed Forces to break ranks and form a Quebec national militia.

A responsible government would have brought forth a motion referring this issue to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs so that a definition of sedition, which reflects the wishes of Canadians, could be determined. Instead the government watered down the motion the Reform Party presented.

The government was quoted as saying the communiqué was shocking and outrageous. It was. In fact the chief government whip who spoke earlier on this matter used the word "mutiny" to describe this incident. The chief government whip in this House described it as mutiny. One would think that such words would be followed by punitive measures. They were not.

The same government whip threatened to take the Reform House leader to the bar of the House of Commons over allegedly trying to pressure the Speaker of the House into appointing the Reform Party as official opposition. It is obvious the government whip considers a loyal opposition to be a greater threat than a disloyal opposition. It would seem apparent that the Reform Party, whose mandate is focused on fixing the country, is considered an enemy of this government and worthy of disciplinary measures. This is indeed a sad reality.

This government prefers a separatist party as loyal opposition. Why? Because it fears Reform. We are a threat. Why are we a threat? We are a threat because we believe in empowering Canadians. We believe in being directly accountable to our electorate. These are fundamental principles of democracy and responsible government.

The Prime Minister and other Liberals on occasion have outlined their version of democracy. Again today the member for Mississauga South talked about practising democracy and said that my colleague, the member for Vancouver North, was frustrated by democracy. This of course is the furthest thing from the truth.

What frustrates me and my colleague is that we do not have democracy in this House. We do not have a functioning democracy pure and simple and Canadians know this. We have an elected dictatorship. It is because we do not have a real democracy that important issues like the issue we are dealing with today can be ignored by government.

I will take some time now to examine the different and opposing views of MPs in this House as to what democracy is and really the opposing and different views that Canadians have when compared to Liberal members of Parliament. There are 295 chairs in this House of Commons. To whom do these chairs belong?

Let us take a chair on the government side as an example. To whom does that chair belong? We have had some members of Parliament in the House, including the Prime Minister, who on occasion have said that the chair belongs to the member of Parliament who sits in it. On other occasions the Prime Minister has said that the government chairs in the House all belong to him, the Prime Minister. There are MPs, Reform members included, who believe that these chairs in the House of Commons belong to the constituents who are represented by the member of Parliament who sits in the chair.

I will talk for a minute or two about the idea that the chair in the House of Commons belongs to the member of Parliament. Recently on a major radio talk show out of Toronto a Liberal member of Parliament was being interviewed. This Liberal member of Parliament is considered to be one of the more democratic members. At times he has gone against the hardline position of his government.

A Reform volunteer decided she would phone the talk show and congratulate him for doing that. While she was waiting to get on, a question was asked of the member of Parliament: If your constituents wanted you to vote in favour of capital punishment, would you? The member hemmed and hawed and never really answered the question.

By the time the Reform volunteer got on the line she was angry and her attitude had changed a little toward the member. She asked him, not once, not twice, but four times whether he would vote the wishes of a majority of his constituents if there were a vote in the House of Commons on capital punishment.

The fourth time she put the question this way: If 100 per cent of your constituents showed in a poll or a survey that they were in favour of capital punishment, if a vote were held in the House of Commons on the issue, would you vote the wishes of your constituents? The member of Parliament said no, he would not, he would vote his conscience. Clearly in that case that member of Parliament believes the chair belongs to him.

Since I have been in this House our Prime Minister has said that he was proud he had the guts to vote against his constituents on the issues of abortion and capital punishment. Is it something to be proud of, that he voted against the wishes of a majority of constituents on the issues of abortion and capital punishment? I think not. In that case the Prime Minister believed that the chair he sits in in the House of Commons belongs to him.

The other view, the predominant view in the Liberal Party, is that the chairs in the House of Commons belong to the Prime Minister. To illustrate this let us look at Bill C-68, the gun control bill. On second reading some Liberal MPs did what their constituents wanted; they had done their homework and they voted against the bill. How were they rewarded for doing the job they are supposed to do here in the House? They were rewarded by being punished by the Prime Minister and thrown off committees.

Then the Prime Minister said publicly that any member of Parliament in his party that voted against a government bill again would be punished by his refusing to sign their nomination papers. That means their political career would be over. That was the public threat. Is that democracy? In that case clearly the Prime Minister is saying: "All the chairs on the governing side in this House belong to me, the Prime Minister, and if you do not do what I say, you are out of here". Does that sound like a democracy? It is not democracy. Pure and simple, it is an elected dictatorship.

There are those of us who have a much different view. There are those of us who believe that the chairs in this House of Commons belong to the people of Canada. Each chair belongs to the people who elected the member of Parliament to represent them. To make the change from the chairs in this House belonging to the Prime Minister or to the individual MPs, Reform put forth several pieces of legislation. These pieces of legislation, had they passed, would have given these chairs to the people and would have taken them from the members and from the Prime Minister.

For example, the hon. member for Beaver River presented Bill C-210 that would have put in place recall of members of Parliament. This would have given the people in the constituency the ability to fire their member of Parliament between elections. On the one hand the Prime Minister would say: "If you do not toe the party line, if you do not vote the way I tell you, I am not going to sign your nomination papers and your career is over". On the other hand the people in the constituency would say: "If you do not do what a majority of us want, we are going to kick you out before the next election". Then that chair would belong to the people in the constituency.

The hon. member for Mission-Coquitlam put forward Motion No. 89 calling for freer votes in the House of Commons. Had this motion passed, this country would have had law putting in place freer votes in the House of Commons. The change is very simple and was made in Britain decades ago. If a government bill was defeated it would not automatically mean the defeat of the government. That frees up members of the governing party to vote the wishes of their constituents. Now should the bill fail, it would require a separate non-confidence motion to pass to defeat the government. That gives the power to the people instead of the individual MPs, in particular the Prime Minister, the party leader.

The hon. member for Mission-Coquitlam put forward Motion No. 459. It would have put in place an elected Senate to replace the patronage appointment Senate we have across the way. The member for Kootenay East put forward Bill C-365 which would have put in place an elected Senate.

Numerous motions that Reformers put forth would have allowed the use of referendums on important issues like capital punishment, abortion and physician assisted suicide. They would have been held in conjunction with federal elections so they would not be expensive. That would have given these seats in the House of Commons directly to the constituents.

In every case this government voted against these bills. It shot down the changes that would have moved control of these seats from the individual MPs and especially from the Prime Minister. It would have given control to the people in the constituencies.

It is so sad that these changes, although promised by the Liberals, have not materialized. In fact they voted against them. The mess we are in now, the issue we are debating today would never have happened had these democratic changes been made. I encourage the government to make these changes although I know it will not.

[Benoît Sauvageau, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I welcome this opportunity to speak on the motion put forward by the Reform Party.

To begin with, I would like to quote from a book that is very well known in Quebec, and probably in English Canada as well. My hon. colleague must be familiar with it, unlike the Reform Party; I am talking about the dictionary. This dictionary contains the following definition, which I will be pleased to read my hon. colleague. Dictionaries are organized like telephone books; it is all very simple: under sedition, one finds: "The stirring up of rebellion against the government in power".

The motion before us is a motion on sedition. Could you tell me, hon. colleagues, through you, Mr. Speaker, when any "stirring up of rebellion against the government in power" took place? As our leader indicated, perhaps sharing one's plans with the national media by fax is not the best thing to do if one is contemplating treason. It is not the best way of keeping a state secret.

Another very important word is defined in this dictionary: democracy. We have been asked to provide a definition of democracy. According to the Reformers, the big, bad separatists were democratically elected by the people, but what does the word "democracy" mean? Are we expected, in this House, to make up a definition for the word "democracy"? I have news for them, a definition already exists, and it reads as follows: "A political doctrine whereby sovereignty is exercised by the people as a whole; a system of government (often a republic) in which people exercise such sovereignty. And they exercise it by choosing their representatives".

The fact that people of Quebec chose to elect 54 sovereignist members back then, members whose primary task was to defend sovereignty for Quebec, was no secret either. It could be, as my colleagues told me quite frankly yesterday, during question period, that all of the 53 current Bloc members should be accused of sedition, of treason, because that is what they really think.

The tabling of this motion was a gimmick to waste the time of the House and to make a point. What point is that? The point that, as far as the Reformers are concerned, the 53 Bloc members are not democratically elected members. To prove their point, they thought it was simple, that all they had to do was redefine the words "sedition" and "democracy", redefine the rules governing the official opposition, redefine the business of the House. They want to redefine all that. Is that democratic in your books, my hon. friends from the Reform Party? I submit that there might be a slight breach of democracy there.

How did all this begin? Upon our arrival, some very odd people took a fancy to bring a $500 million suit against us. I must admit that, faced with this, I checked in my bank book how much money I had. I was in trouble. So, I set it aside. Fortunately, this silly suit was abandoned.

The Reform Party then asked that the Prime Minister be dismissed by the Governor General, thumbing their noses at democracy. As has been the case since 1867, the leader of the party that had sent the most elected members to Parliament became the

Prime Minister; but that was not right either. So then the Reform said "OK, we will just change the definition, change democracy".

Then they said "Maybe that is not diabolical enough. Let us ask the Speaker to make us the Official Opposition; surely the principle of numbers which has been in effect since the beginning is no good, since it does not make us the Official Opposition. So, let us change the Standing Orders." Nothing is too good. Nothing is too good for the working class. So, turning up their noses at democracy, they ask for the Standing Orders to be changed. Luckily, Mr. Speaker, you stuck to the rules as you always do, and everything stayed as it was.

Then the Reform Party, great democratic party that it is, releases a 20-point document stating how and why, in 20 clear points, they are antidemocratic. It is always good to demonstrate things clearly, instead of just letting actions speak for themselves.

They start off by saying that they are for partition, and this is an antidemocratic act. As well, they say "Aboriginal territories within Quebec, within Canada, will be able to remain Canadian", once again turning their backs on democracy. And then what do they say? Such a ridiculous motion would never have occurred to us. They say "Well, if that does not work, we will send in the army." We are not the ones saying all this, they are. What is this about an apprehended revolt? Who mentions the army in a public document? It could have been kept a little more secret, but no, they called a press conference. That's the Reformers for you.

Then, another change. They say "Sedition, that word does not work for us." There is indeed a dictionary with an explanation of what sedition is, but it is not right. So Reform proposes a change-perhaps a good motion for next week-in which sedition will be defined as a crime of opinion. You are sovereignists, you express that as your opinion. We have changed the definition by changing the dictionaries, so now we can accuse everybody. That will be way easier. And what fun too.

Will the Reform Party take over where Barnum and Bailey left off? That is a question one could well ask, because they seem to be in training to become circus clowns. When will they stop their buffoonery and respect the decorum of the House? We are even thinking that, next week, they will present a motion in this House to abolish winter next year. At that time, we will keep to the level of responsibility they have set.

A Reform member tabled a motion last week. I am quoting here an article by Joël-Denis Bellavance in Le Soleil on March 13. He said: Last Friday, a Reform member tabled a motion stipulating that:-before consulting Canadians, MPs and senators in Ottawa should first determine, following a free vote-a free vote, nothing is too much-whether the question put to voters by the separating province-that must be ours-was simple and direct. A majority vote by parliamentarians would then force the federal government to organize a national referendum-'' So, forget about democracy, which is part of the rules of the game over there, and hold a national referendum. Only the best. The article goes on as follows: ``-to define the mandate to negotiate the terms of separation. If a majority of Canadians were to give such a mandate to the federal government,-no need to consult Jojo Savard on this, it will happen-it would undertake negotiations only with those Quebec electoral districts that endorsed the sovereignty proposal. The others would remain part of Canada.'' Fine respect for democracy.

And then it goes on to say that it would have to provide that Quebec would become an independent state, to be respected. The province would no longer be part of Canada. If you want to move us, send us somewhere warm. And it goes on: "Quebecers would no longer be represented in the Senate and the House of Commons. They would lose their Canadian citizenship and passport. They would lose their right to enter and travel freely within the country-"

I would point out that the United States is a sovereign country and that you can go there without any problem.

Everyday we see more and more examples of how an irresponsible party can cause people to lose faith in its members. They were elected democratically, and we respect that. We were elected democratically, and they should respect that.

They may have a political program-we cannot tell-but they were elected to carry it out, and that is what we are doing with ours. Why not tackle real problems instead of paralysing the business of this House, deliberately bringing the business of this House to a stall with points of information? We informed the military of a course of action. In a 20-point document, we were told that the army would be sent out in the event of a yes vote. Do we not also have the right to inform our people? I would think that we do; after all, it is common now, in our society, to inform the people through the media.

The Reformers said they were disappointed not to have been recognized as the official opposition. People watching the debate on television must be able to see through their little game. I personally feel this is a waste of time, as I said earlier, and this is how the Reformers hope to keep the people of Quebec from making themselves heard through their democratically elected representatives. The word "democratically" is in there are well.

I would therefore like to tell the leader of the Reform Party that we realize that in trying to muzzle the Bloc Quebecois, they are in fact trying to silence all Quebecers, because we are their representatives. I can assure you that the Bloc Quebecois will not shut up and that the people of Quebec will not be intimidated by the motion put forward by the hon. member for Okanagan-Similkameen-Merritt, which is incidentally an insidious motion. He referred to francophone Quebecers; I asked him to show me where

in the press release the words "francophone Quebecers" were used. "Nowhere", he said.

So I had a word with him-I cannot repeat it in this House because the term "lying" is unparliamentary-because of what he had done, and he said: "Yes, I know. It does not matter; we are still going ahead".

So they are consciously taking actions that violate democratic principles. Reform members should be ashamed of their lack of seriousness, of professionalism with respect to all proceedings of the House of Commons.

Again, asking the Governor General to dismiss the Prime Minister from his post has, I think, never been done; at least I hope so. They might as well ask the Speaker to ignore the Standing Orders and to make them the official opposition, or perhaps ask that next winter be abolished.

This rather whimsical strategy also seems to reflect a lack of preparation on the part of the Reform Party, an obvious lack of substance on matters that are much more important to people, and probably to their own constituents.

I see in the Reform Party's attitude a conscious attempt to delay the 35th Parliament. The Riel, Rose and McGreevy precedents in this House clearly show that such a serious accusation can only be made in a court of law. Yet, in the case of my colleague, the hon. member for Charlesbourg, two courts, one in Quebec and one in Ontario, have already ruled that this matter could not be taken to court.

In his communiqué, the hon. member for Charlesbourg was only trying to give legitimate reassurances to members of the Canadian Forces, as had been done for federal public servants. Armed Forces personnel were also entitled to be informed of the consequences of a yes vote in the referendum. The hon. member for Charlesbourg fulfilled an obligation, namely providing a segment of the population with information on their legitimate concerns. I believe that was the purpose of the communiqué of October 26, 1995.

If the Reform Party thinks to make use of this motion to beef up its credibility in the rest of Canada, or with its clientele, it is mistaken. All it is doing is beefing up its reputation as a party of clowns.

Again I repeat, all that the hon. member for Charlesbourg has done is to inform Armed Forces personnel, Quebec men and women who are in the Canadian Armed Forces, of the Quebec government's position in the event of a yes vote. Its orientations with respect to defence were clearly set out in its bill on the future of Quebec. The hon. member for Charlesbourg felt it advisable, relevant and legitimate, to submit those orientations to the members of the Canadian Armed Forces.

I shall quote, if I may, from section 17 of the draft bill on the future of Quebec, drafted well before October 25. A motion could well have been introduced accusing every single person in Quebec of sedition and high treason, because it said the following clearly-and could there be anything more dreadful?-

The government is taking the necessary steps to ensure that Quebec continues to participate in those defence alliances of which Canada is a member. Such participation must, however, be compatible with Quebec's desire to give priority to peace keeping throughout the world under the auspices of the United Nations.

This can be painless. We will take men and women who are already in the armed forces, we will integrate them into the new Quebec armed forces, and they will be called upon to carry out such missions. This is written in clause 17. We will send you the information. You will see what the sovereignist project is all about.

The communiqué issued by the member for Charlesbourg did nothing more than interpret this statement.

I find this debate is dangerous, and I would ask Reform members to stop turning this House into a circus. For their part, they could be suspected of deliberately trying to diminish the credibility of this House. This could be the subject of a motion.

Several Quebec soldiers are sovereignists; it is not a mortal sin. Several Quebec soldiers would be very happy, in a sovereign Quebec, to be members of the Quebec armed forces. Around 50 per cent voted yes, and 50 per cent voted no.

I should mention that if Reform members want to accuse us of all kinds of ills, first they should look closely at the situation of francophone soldiers and their families outside Quebec. A case in point is the story of Maryse Villeneuve, the wife of a soldier stationed in Moose-Jaw, Saskatchewan, who became so frustrated that she lodged five complaints with the Commissioner of Official Languages regarding abuses under the Official Languages Act.

The Commissioner of Official Languages Act deemed the complaints valid enough to conduct an inquiry. There was an investigation on the five complaints and, later on, another study compared services offered to francophones in Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan, to those offered to anglophones at CFB Bagotville.

I could make 52 copies of this and distribute them because the results of the investigation on the five complaints clearly show there are almost no services offered to French-speaking armed forces personnel in Moose Jaw, compared to services in general

and to the respect they have for the Official Languages Act in Quebec and at CFB Bagotville.

English-speaking personnel who practice-

[An hon. member]

Bill 101.

[Benoît Sauvageau, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Bill 101 has nothing to do with it. Come to Quebec and you will see that we respect our minorities. I can guarantee that, in front of everybody in this House.

Bill 101? To all those people who have never been to Quebec, to those who present motions accusing us of sedition, to those who are investigated because they did not abide by the rules on official languages, to those who do not even bother to have a French newspaper in their province, I will say that this is much more outrageous than Bill 101. That is another thing that should be said in this House.

The Quebec government said, in a document published on April 7, 1995, and I quote: "April 7, 1995"-it would have been more clever if you had presented your motion a year ago.-"It is not necessary to form a very large army, but Quebec could at least adopt a coherent defence policy, suited to its needs". It is clear that the question is not new. It was in our draft bill on Quebec sovereignty, it was in a working paper published in April 1995, and if you want to accuse people of sedition I will give you another name.

He was professor of strategic studies at the former military college in Saint-Jean and he tabled a report before the Montreal commission on Quebec's future. We are talking here about a professor who was working for the Canadian Armed Forces and was paid by the Canadian government. I can tell you that he was being quite seditious.

The title of his report was: "The future for a defence policy in a sovereign Quebec". He works for the Canadian Armed Forces. Is he also going to be hanged at Pied-du-Courant on June 24?

"Should sovereignty occur, it would be necessary for Quebec to consider defining and implementing a defence policy". What would such a policy be like? "The mandate of a Quebec armed force, whether independent or associated with the rest of Canada, could be geared to two secondary responsibilities: first, territorial surveillance and public order; second, peacekeeping and peace enforcement operations.

A professor of strategic studies at the Collège militaire de Saint-Jean dares to write a document alluding to the possibility of a sovereign Quebec. Wow! That guy was going rather far, was he not? Anything is possible, right? Yet, that gentleman was not accused of treason, sedition, lese-majesty or anything else.

He was referring to a distinct possibility in Quebec. Quebecers did not suddenly wake up on October 28; they were aware long before of the real possibility that Quebec might become a sovereign state. Are people told about that reality? Are they simply told, as Reformers said: "If you respect democracy, we will send in the army"? No. We are civilized and we say: "Listen, should Quebec become sovereign, here is what will happen". Just like we told federal public servants: "We will sign an agreement to have you integrated into the new Quebec public service".

We also told old age pensioners: "We will continue to pay you those pensions". We said the same thing to retired federal public servants. Not because we are richer, but because the money is in funds which exist and which belong to those who made contributions. This is not a mortal sin. I am warning you now: there will be another referendum, so you had better prepare yourself psychologically.

I will conclude by saying that if Reformers are interested in working for the Cirque du Soleil, I will be happy to get them job application forms and then take the forms to the circus.

[Dave Chatters, Reform, Athabasca, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to join the debate and to express the concerns of my constituents on the issue raised by my colleague, the hon. member for Okanagan-Similkameen-Merritt.

We are debating today whether the comments made by the hon. member for Charlesbourg and the actions of the then leader of the opposition should be viewed as seditious and offensive to the House, whether they constitute a contempt of Parliament and, therefore, should be referred to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs to determine what action might be appropriate.

These are very serious allegations. As the Speaker said, it is probably one of the most serious issues with which the House has had to deal in the 35th Parliament. It should not be viewed lightly.

Yesterday, when my colleague was presenting his motion, some Bloc members were laughing and heckling. They found great merriment in the presentation of the motion. My constituents believe, as do I, that these comments were in fact seditious and offensive and, therefore, constitute a contempt of Parliament, as well as a breach of the Criminal Code.

The issue of whether the courts have ruled on this matter has come up a number of times in the House. I suggest the statement that the courts have found that it does not constitute a breach of the Criminal Code is not right. The Ontario court has yet to rule on the matter and there is an appeal before the Quebec court because the verdict on the original charge was not accepted by the crown, so further litigation will proceed on the matter.

I have also been very upset by the Bloc comments that I heard yesterday and today on the matter. Bloc members have tried to make light of the issue. They have said that the communiqué, the press release, was simply a communication for information to the Canadian Armed Forces and that it was information for Quebec soldiers. There is no such thing as a Quebec soldier. They are Canadian soldiers, each and every one of them.

I heard it said it was no different than going to athletes from Quebec and saying to them "after we reach independence in Quebec you will be invited to participate in athletics and to represent Quebec". It is no different than going to the artists from Quebec and saying "when we become independent you will be invited to represent Quebec instead of Canada". That simply is not acceptable.

It is entirely different from those circumstances. Each and every one of the people in the Canadian Armed Forces has taken a serious and solemn oath to protect and to be loyal to Canada. That is the difference. I do not know of athletes anywhere who have had to take such a solemn and serious oath to represent their country or their province in athletic competition.

I believe most Canadians find it very offensive to have the separatist Bloc Quebecois representing Her Majesty's loyal opposition in this House. That is not to say it does not have a democratic right to be here. I would support the democratic right for that party to be here. The people of Quebec have the right to choose anyone they wish to represent them in this House.

However, it does not follow that the Bloc has a right, or should be sitting as Her Majesty's loyal opposition. I find that quite ludicrous. I am most disappointed that the government would hide behind legalities, precedents and regulations to allow that to continue. Canadians everywhere find it outrageous and a good part of the world is laughing at Canada for allowing such a ludicrous situation to continue.

Did the member for Charlesbourg really think Canadian military officers, the men and women, who have pledged allegiance to defend Canada, would take up arms against Canada to enforce a yes victory after a referendum? Did he really think that his actions would not upset Canadians, both English and French, both inside and outside Quebec? I can hardly believe he would be so naive as to believe that.

This act by the member for Charlesbourg and the then leader of Her Majesty's loyal opposition shows how ludicrous the pretence is that the Bloc Quebecois represents the official opposition and the interests of all Canadians, not just the interests of the separatists from Quebec. One would have to be an idiot to believe the Bloc represents anybody's interests but the separatists from Quebec.

As retired General Lewis MacKenzie points out, only in Canada would one get away with something like what has happened here. I believe, and everyone might agree, that in some countries people who had done such things would be either executed or would be waiting in jail. In Canada the attitude is simply to ignore it and perhaps it will go away. That is what the government had hoped.

Canadians had hoped for the last four months that the government would do something to address this matter and take some action. We waited and waited while the demand for something to be done got louder and louder. Since the government did not act we were forced to act as the third party in the House of Commons.

The attitude of the leaders of the government, in particular the leader of the Canadian military in this government, is simply outrageous. For the life of me I cannot understand why the police, the military, the courts and government ministers have wimped out on this issue of what appears to be an open and shut case of sedition or at least an open and shut case of inciting to mutiny, both of which carry a possible 14-year prison sentence.

One can quote all the dictionaries one wants, that is quite irrelevant to this issue. The definition of sedition or inciting a mutiny is quite clear in the Criminal Code. It is quite clear that the actions of this member constituted a breach of the Criminal Code. I understand the defence minister consulted the justice department on the issue at the time and was told by a lawyer that there was no case. Therefore, no action was taken.

This incident casts a serious shadow over the loyalty of members of the Canadian military which is responsible for the defence of Canadian sovereignty. On that issue, I quote an article that appeared in the November 25 edition of the Financial Post , written by Diane Francis: ``The rumours are that secessionists had obtained oaths of allegiance from sympathetic officers eager to set up a rival army''.

The Bloc member who spoke before me said that we were fools to think that there were no separatists and disloyal members of the Canadian Armed Forces who were prepared to take up arms against Canada. It is reprehensible that this shadow would be cast over the Canadian Armed Forces that I respect so greatly and which has such a tremendous reputation around the world for the work they have done on behalf of all Canadians.

Reports in the media also state that there was a problem with junior officers. Again, Diane Francis pointed out in her March 2 article in the Financial Post , that half of the cadets at the Kingston Military College were packed and ready to return to Quebec to join the new Quebec army if a yes vote had succeeded.

What was the minister's response to this? The minister stated in an interview with Diane Francis that he cannot get directly involved because it would cause problems within the military, already demoralized by the Somalia scandal. That is ludicrous. It is his responsibility to get involved, to deal quickly and decisively with what might be disloyalty in the Canadian Armed Forces.

It is quite unbelievable that this has happened. Had it happened in the U.S.A., I can assure the House that the U.S. military and the U.S. minister of defence certainly would not be sitting around on their duffs doing nothing. This is a serious matter. We have an obligation to Canadians to cite this member's statement as seditious and then have it examined by the parliamentary committee on House affairs to determine what action should be taken.

We also have to weed out the separatists in the Canadian Armed Forces because loyalty is everything in a country's army. If the army is not loyal to Canada, then we have a very serious problem.

It is a sad that the government has taken no leadership role in this matter. It took a private Canadian, Brent Tyler from Montreal, to have the courage to take this matter before the courts with an unfortunate, unsuccessful result to this point. The story is not over. We are hoping with all our hearts that the courts will deal seriously with the issue and rule on it in a fair and reasonable manner.

Again, Diane Francis, the journalist I quoted earlier, went to the RCMP over the issue because she felt so strongly. She asked the RCMP to do something about it. They in turn told her that it had been turned over to the legal branch of the RCMP which would be discussing the matter with the Department of Justice. Furthermore, they said that the matter will take some time to investigate. We waited and waited. It appears that the whole matter has been dropped. We all know why. It is because appeasement of the separatists is the Liberal answer to separatism in Canada.

Appeasement has never worked anywhere in the world and it will not work with the separatists. We have been appeasing the separatists in Quebec for 30 years and on October 30 we came within a hair's breadth of losing this country. The strategy is not be successful. It does not work and I will not support it.

I have received numerous letters, phone calls and personal interventions from my constituents on this issue. It is important that we have the opportunity to express the views of ordinary Canadians and put those views on the record. Canadians should be able to read in Hansard how the House dealt with this serious issue.

This is not only my constituents. There was a poll done yesterday by Broadcast News, a national news network. A question was floated to Canadians: should a Bloc Quebecois member of Parliament be censured by Parliament because he invited soldiers to switch their loyalty to a post-referendum independent Quebec army? Of the number of calls received, 1,112 people said yes, he should be. Only 66 callers said no, he should not be. Ninety-four per cent of the respondents supported the idea that this member of Parliament should be censured and held responsible for the action he took. It certainly was not simply a job offer to members of the Canadian Armed Forces.

Constituents in my riding, Mrs. Maureen Bizon and Mr. Robert Johnson, contacted my office in the last day or two to express outrage with this issue. They demanded that since the government would not raise this issue we should do something. Mrs. Bizon said I should push the Minister of Justice to press charges against these members who made this statement in their press release. She continued by saying these members should be at least charged with sedition or inciting mutiny. At the very least, she wanted a serious and thorough investigation of all the allegations. That is typical of the many constituents who called, phoned and stopped me on the street to talk to me about this issue.

The list is endless. Canadians everywhere feel this is very serious. However, I wanted to quote that one person because I felt it was fairly representative of how all Canadians feel.

The comments made by the member for Charlesbourg and by the then leader of the opposition were reviewed by ordinary Canadians everywhere as seditious and offensive. The inaction by the police, the military and the government are viewed as deplorable by Canadians.

The question now is what to do about it. These Canadians have called on the government first to do something about it. They have called on the courts to do something about it. Failing that, they have now called on our party to do something about it. Will we now simply sweep it under the rug or whitewash it as the government is now still trying to do? Those nasty Reformers are inflaming the separatist movement.

Are we to ignore it and sweep it away again like we have so many other things, as we have for other racial groups that are openly and flagrantly breaking the Criminal of Code of Canada? We must not hold them accountable because we will inflame the separatists or other racial groups simply for the appearance of being politically correct.

Did we ever really have to wonder about the military members in Alberta? Do we have to worry about them being recruited to an Alberta army? I do not think that is very likely.

The one thing that concerns me most is that the majority of Canadians living in the constituencies of these members across the floor probably feel the same. However, we heard an ongoing debate

about how democratic this place is and what opportunities all members have to express the concerns of their constituents.

It certainly appears that members opposite do not have the courage to stand up and speak for their constituents on this issue. Instead they hide behind the procedures and the precedents of the House. They let us raise this issue which is unmentionable for them simply because their party will not allow them to do that. It is truly unfortunate that they are not able to speak on behalf of their constituents and that the government takes such a casual and a laissez fair attitude toward the separatists inciting a mutiny in the Canadian Armed Forces.

I remember distinctly last year when this issue was first raised and was front page material in the press across the country these same members were all excited and up in arms over the comments, saying how terrible it was and that something must be done, we have to deal with this and we have to stop this open challenge by separatists to the Canadian Armed Forces.

What happened? Nothing was done. Why did the frontbenchers in the government opposite not take some action? Why did they not answer to what was happening. Why again on this issue, as we have seen in so many others, is the government simply supporting the separatists in the actions they are taking in committees and in Parliament?.

The government, until we raised this issue, had every intention of using its majority in the justice committee to elect the member we are charging here as the vice-chairman of the standing committee on national defence. If that is not aiding and abetting the separatists in their cause to take Quebec out of Canada, I have no idea what would be. The same procedure went on recently in every standing committee of the House.

I believe the only way to satisfactorily deal with the situation is to lay the charges we have and then refer the charge and the motion we have put forward to the standing committee for examination and for recommendations on action to be taken.

I view this as much more than, as the whip for the government said, an impetuous act by a member of Parliament, that we should send it to committee, he should be slapped on the wrist, he should be censured and told he should not do that and then let the whole matter fall aside and take no further action.

We have to take very serious action. We have to consider the expulsion of this member from the House of Commons. We have to consider pursuing laying charges under the Criminal Code of Canada for the action he has taken.

[Pierre Brien, Bloc, Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Speaker, before getting to the substance of my speech, I would like to comment on a number of statements made by the Reform member. After listening to him for 20 minutes, I feel that he almost deserves a prize for saying so many things that are inaccurate and indicative of a lack of sensitivity and vision. All this from people who claim to form a national party that wants to settle the constitutional crisis in which we find ourselves.

One thing that really stunned me was the reference to loyalty. The member talked about Quebec soldiers currently serving in the Canadian Armed Forces. He said there are no Quebec soldiers. However, there are Quebecers serving in the Canadian Armed Forces. In my opinion, these people are Quebecers first and then soldiers. The member said that these people's loyalty must be to the Canadian Armed Forces.

This would mean that even democracy would only come second. As everyone knows, if, some day, Quebec achieves sovereignty-and I am convinced that it will-it will have done so through a very democratic and open process, with the support of a majority of the population.

It will be after a democratic yes vote by Quebecers that people will be asked to respect the choice of the majority, and that we will set up the structures that every country has, including a military force that will take part in peacekeeping missions throughout the world.

We need to face up to reality. The Canadian army does not necessarily defend Canada's territorial integrity. It takes part in peacekeeping missions. If there was a problem and Canada's territorial integrity was challenged, I seriously doubt that our army would be up to the challenge, and everybody knows that. Again, the main task of our army is to keep or, as the case may be, make peace in the world.

Let us return to the Reformer member said. He said that these people were soldiers who should be loyal to the Canadian Armed Forces before being democratic. This comment is rather surprising, coming from people who were elected to a Parliament which has been democratic since Confederation. Democracy is one of most cherished values in this country and, to a certain extent, makes us all proud.

By his remarks he calls into question the very principle of democracy. It is very disturbing to see a member who sits in the Parliament of Canada, question, indirectly, the foundations of democracy.

Of course he extensively quoted Dane Francis, his intellectual guru, who prompts him on substance, on political thought. I believe

she alerted the Reform Party to this issue. It should be pointed out, in case Reformers had forgotten, that we are now in mid-March. The communiqué was released in October, a few days before the referendum. All of a sudden, this week, or toward the end of last week, they wake up after reading some articles by Mrs. Francis, who found the whole situation outrageous. They decided to make a big fuss about it.

I find it deplorable that this is going on at a time when we are faced with major problems in terms of employment, when all Canadians ask themselves how we should manage our public finances, which choices we should make, how we should go about it, how to guarantee that everybody, especially the most disadvantaged can pull through this financial crisis. People wonder a lot, and they are very concerned.

My constituents, but maybe not those of my Reform or Liberal colleagues, are more concerned by these issues. I do not know how I will be able to explain to them on the weekend that Parliament spent the whole week debating a motion first from the Reform Party then from the government, discussing charges of sedition against a member from the Bloc Quebecois, when our ridings are faced with a lot of problems that we must deal with.

We have already talked about this matter for two days. That is rather outrageous, not to mention all the energy that all the parties have devoted to this issue. And the government should blame itself because it could have stopped this by defeating the motion from the Reform Party, and that would have been the end of it. But no, the government, perhaps because of a lack of imagination or bills to introduce, decided to move an amendment to refer this matter to a committee, but I will come back to that later.

I want to tell you that I find it totally ridiculous that we have spent so much time on such a trivial matter, because it is just that, even though it has been blown out of proportions. We will get back to the heart of the matter in a few minutes.

I would like to remind people that it might also be an attempt by the Reformers to hide the disarray within their caucus at the present time. We know that some of them are questioning the fact that their colleagues people are taking positions that are far too radical. We have not seen them much in the last few days.

At a time when the Reformers' political positions could be examined in the House, they are trying to draw attention away, toward something else. This is typical, it is nothing new, they did not invent anything. I think this is one reason for their actions, but the other one, which is probably much more important, is that, since October 1993, these people have never accepted, and this brings us back to the issue of democracy, that we have formed the official opposition, that a greater number of us were chosen to sit in this Parliament. According to the rules and traditions of our parliamentary system, it is our privilege to be the official opposition, because voters have made that choice.

So, at every opportunity, by roundabout ways, by direct and indirect means, they try each time to challenge that. That is the objective because, of course, we current have an equal number of members, even though that will change in a few days. If they could get one of our members thrown out, that would certainly be the ideal thing. Perhaps that is the only way for them to become the official opposition, because I am convinced that the byelection results will demonstrate once again that Reformers are part of a way of thinking that does not, certainly not in Quebec, nor I believe in the rest of Canada, represent the views of a majority of Canadians, as people are far more moderate than that.

Yet, their comments are reported by some people in the media, like Ms. Francis, who abuse their power in these cases to provide a forum for this kind of action, which does nothing to improve the current political situation.

Let us go back to the facts themselves. What happened? We must go back to a few days before the referendum, that is to say, during an intense campaign, a vigorous democratic debate, a very tight race, a few days before the results were known. I remember that, during the campaign and even before, people were asking us what we would do after a yes vote. Commissions were also set up to consult the people of Quebec. We took part in these meetings, and the hon. members opposite would have been well-advised to do the same as it would probably have done them some good.

People were asking us about the outcome of a yes vote. So, throughout the campaign, we met with various groups of people to explain to them our vision of Quebec after a yes vote.

A few days before the referendum, my colleague, the hon. member for Charlesbourg, released a communiqué, according to which "the MP for Charlesbourg believes that-Quebec will have need of all Quebecers presently enlisted in the armed forces". In the first paragraph, he talks about the size of the armed forces and argues that Quebec will not need such a large military. He then talks about international peace missions, how much they cost, how they work, how many soldiers are needed. He goes back to the international missions and calls on Quebec soldiers to respect the democratic decision made by Quebecers, inviting them to join Quebec's future armed forces should Quebecers opt for sovereignty. He adds that they would enjoy the same working conditions and so on.

I think that telling people who had the right to vote in this democratic process to decide the future of the people of Quebec-because this communiqué was released in Quebec-what they could expect the day after a yes vote was a responsible thing to do. That is essentially what my colleague did.

Yet, a few months later, the motive behind this action is being questioned on the grounds that it is an incitement to sedition. Let me give you the exact definition of the term "sedition" according to the French dictionary. The dictionary defines this term as a concerted revolt against public authority. A concerted revolt.

This afternoon, I read the communiqué over twice, to try to see how it could be interpreted as stirring up a rebellion against the government in power, when all we are doing is urging people to respect the democratic decision that will be made and telling them what to expect the day after a yes victory, in the event that this had been the course democratically chosen by the people.

There is absolutely no mention of any potential uprising. If you were planning a rebellion, Mr. Speaker, is the first thing you would do be to inform every media in the country that you are staging an uprising by making a public announcement? This makes no sense. I think this is elementary.

Perhaps the Reformers would chose an approach the same way they develop their political strategy. However, that is certainly not how most people would go about it.

After sitting in this place for two years and a half, one gets used to Reformers struggling with policy analysis, having a hard time maintaining a high standard of responsibility and not always understanding how a democratic system works.

Things get more complicated when, this week, in a fit of panic, the government gives in to their arguments to some extent and, instead of putting an end to this whole thing once and for all, it goes along with this approach-because we must bear in mind the initial motion put forward by the Reformers, who accused my hon. colleague of sedition and so on and wanted to make him pay for it, which was eventually amended by the government to have the matter referred to a committee of the House for consideration.

But there is nothing to consider, absolutely nothing. What is the point? What good would this do? What goal would this serve? It would just support the Reformers' approach, and that is very surprising.

As I recall, during the first two sessions of Parliament, and during the first one in particular, the Prime Minister and his ministers stood up in this House one after the other to praise Canadian democracy, saying that this Parliament was the greatest example of democracy, since sovereignists were allowed to sit in it and that it was a great example of Canadian pride and democratic values.

Today, by their actions, they finally accept us but our presence may not be tolerated if we do not promote ideas or political goals that do not suit them.

In a democracy, there is freedom of speech and the right of dissent. Of course, and we have always made this clear, we stand for a political goal which is for Quebec to become a sovereign country, a partner. We want to be partners, because there are many areas of mutual interest, and we will certainly succeed because good sense will finally prevail. On the other hand, we do not even have a choice. But all this stopped making sense for Liberal members in the past few days, given their major turnaround. If ever there was a turnaround, this is it. They, who used to say they were true democrats, are re-opening the whole issue because they wish to allow this investigation of a sovereignist member's presence in the House.

As a member of the same party and a colleague of the hon. member for Charlesbourg, I feel I am also attacked by this procedure. Indeed, what guarantee do we have that, having expressed an opinion in our own riding, we could not also be accused of sedition?

In fact, we are being accused of being sovereignists, and therefore seditious. That is what it amounts to, because the hon. member for Charlesbourg certainly did not organize an uprising or recruit people who were armed to the teeth and ready to come to Ottawa and topple the government. He provided an analysis of the situation the day after a yes vote. He was expressing himself democratically, with the means provided to us as parliamentarians. This issue is worrying.

I also read the definition of "sedition" in the English dictionary, and I understood why the Reform members exaggerated. In English, it is defined as:

"Conduct or speech inciting to a rebellion or a breach of public order".

Of course, the beginning of the definition says "conduct or speech"-but you have to read the whole sentence-"inciting to a rebellion". Our friends in the Reform Party should have made an extra effort to read as far as the word "rebellion", which can be synonymous with revolt or something else. As far as I know, this is not at all what the hon. member for Charlesbourg was doing. There is a problem, either because Reformers find it hard to do their job properly, or because they have difficulty understanding words. I would say it is a combination of both.

I will get back to it. This really should not come as such a surprise, given how hard it is for them to grasp current reality. However, it is surprising to see Liberal members, including the hon. member for Kingston and the Islands, who is listening assiduously, condone that action. That is surprising. This goes for all Liberal members, because we expect them to be much more serious than that.

I also want to say that we were elected with close to 50 per cent of the votes in Quebec. The Reformer who spoke before me made a very serious statement. First, he alluded to a poll conducted by CTV and said he was convinced that people in every riding in Canada did not accept such an outrageous action. This is not the exact word he used, but it was something to that effect. He said that, in every riding, people did not accept that.

I have to say that, in his speech, the hon. member has already excluded Quebec from Canada.

I invite him to come to my riding this weekend or next weekend and see if the majority of my constituents share his opinion. I invite him to debate that issue in my riding of Témiscamingue. I will send him a map, with the appropriate directions, so that we can have a good discussion and see what the majority of my constituents think about it.

He mentioned that twice in his remarks -I hear him muttering something to the effect that I misunderstood his remarks. He said that twice, using the expression "all Canadians". To say that every Canadian would support him in what he said is going a bit too far. Until proven otherwise, I am still one, and I do not support him. In that sense, my colleague here does not either, nor do my other colleagues, I am sure. Even our constituents and many federalists in Quebec do not accept that interpretation.

To conclude, because I only have a couple of minutes left, I would simply like to say that I am very disappointed with the Liberal Party and the government. They made sure that we would avoid debates on major issues this week, the week following the tabling of the federal budget where the government announced its intentions, where it confirmed its cuts in social transfers to the provinces and its cuts in the unemployment insurance program, two issues of great concern to people in Quebec and in Canada.

We would have had the opportunity to debate those issues more thoroughly in order to improve the reforms the government intends to make, even though, in some cases, we would like it to withdraw them or, at least, pay heed to our arguments so that, while moving forward, they might at least take one fact into account, namely that some people will be hard hit by their reforms.

Instead, the Parliament has wasted two full sitting days, the energy of almost a week, to discuss an issue that should have been dealt with in a matter of minutes. I will have a hard time explaining that to my constituents who are already very cynical about politics and tell us frequently, and I am sure the hon. member for Kingston and the Islands will agree, that our institutions are a bit obsolete.

We got a good example of that this week. Of course, I will give my opinion and I will use up my 20 minutes in this debate, because we can very well spend a whole day on this. That is why I take the floor, but the whole situation is disappointing, and it can only convince us even more that the only way we can make significant changes in our institutions is for Quebecers to take control of their own destiny and put in place institutions that would be much more modern. That way, Canadians too will have to adjust their institutions to their liking.

In the meantime, I hope everybody will calm down. The debate is not making waves in Quebec. But outside Quebec, and I will conclude with this, there are people who are trying to stir up strong negative reactions. They are trying to score political points at the expense of Quebec, and that is not a healthy attitude. Let me say to all these people that they should be very careful about what they do, because the consequences can be staggering. I am thinking right now of the government, because nothing much can be expected from the Reform Party.

[Philip Mayfield, Reform, Cariboo—Chilcotin, BC]

Mr. Speaker, it has been interesting to listen to the debate today. I am reminded of when I was in the ministry and being confronted with what was called situational ethics. It was a means by switching words around and by looking at things a little differently to rationally justify such things as premeditated murder.

The debate today concerns me because words are used so casually and definitions are used so loosely. We are talking about how we may preserve our democracy. The foundation of our democracy is the rule of law.

I am not particularly interested in a view of the law like that of Inspector Javert in Victor Hugo's Les Misérables . However unless we take seriously what the law means, our rights and privileges, and how we conduct ourselves, we are fraying the fabric of democracy. If we in the House who are responsible for the passing of laws do not take it seriously, how can we expect young people who are struggling and looking for a way to get by on the streets to take seriously laws that are given scant heed here?

The matter before us should be reviewed by the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs to determine if the member is in contempt of Parliament and to determine if what he did was offensive to Parliament.

It would be a mistake not to look at the charge which was brought squarely to deal with it. If it is not a correct charge, if the person did nothing improper, then it should be set aside. The protection the law offers is the protection of all of us.

There are two important reasons the matter needs to be investigated. Before I explain them we need to clearly understand the historical circumstances behind why the subject is before us today in the House.

On October 26, 1995 the member for Charlesbourg sent a fax to all Canadian forces bases in Quebec. He issued the release under the letterhead of the then leader of the Bloc Quebecois, Lucien Bouchard. In part it read that the day after a yes vote Quebec must create immediately a defence department, the embryo of a defence staff, and offer all Quebecers serving in the Canadian forces the chance to integrate into the Quebec forces.

The release concluded:

-I think that soldiers of Quebec origin will respect the people's decision and will transfer their loyalty to the new country whose security they will ensure.

The nub of the question is that they will transfer their loyalty. This was done in the name of the leader of the official opposition in the House of Commons. That is offensive in my mind and that is the charge I would like to have examined.

The federal government's response to the release of the member's communiqué came six days after the referendum vote. The defence minister, as quoted in a November 7, 1995 Toronto Star article, said the following: ``To appeal to members of the Canadian armed forces to become part of a hypothetical, foreign army, I found this matter perplexing. I found it a bit shocking''.

The article also stated that the defence minister asked the military's judge advocate general to give a legal opinion about the propriety of the communiqué released by the member for Charlesbourg.

Since these comments were made Canadians have not heard any other official word from the government. The government has not taken any action against the member; it has not even asked for an apology.

This brings us to the first major reason I believe my colleague had a valid point when he asked that the action taken by the member for Charlesbourg on October 26, 1995, including the charge of sedition, be investigated by the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.

Since the referendum I have travelled extensively in my riding and throughout the country. I have listened to many Canadians who are extremely perturbed and upset at the member's behaviour, that he should do something like this and that there should be no response. They sincerely believe he did something wrong.

The informal broadcast news poll quoted by my colleague indicates that I am not one small voice in the wilderness since 94 per cent of respondents said that something should be done. While this is not a scientific poll with 1,178 respondents it is a larger number than many polls with results upon which major decisions are based.

These are very serious accusations. We have heard many definitions of sedition; many dictionaries have been quoted. I quote from the Criminal Code, section 62(1)(b) which describes sedition and its penalties:

Everyone who wilfully (a) interferes with, impairs or influences the loyalty or discipline of a member of a force,

This is not talking about a revolt. This is talking about influence and this is exactly what was done, in my estimation. The section continues:

(b) publishes, edits, issues, circulates or distributes a writing that advises, counsels or urges insubordination, disloyalty, mutiny or refusal of a duty by a member of a force, or in any manner causes insubordination, disloyalty, mutiny or refusal of duty by a member of a force is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years.

Section two defines a force:

(2) In this section, "member of a force" means "a member of

a)the Canadian Forces; or

b) the naval, army or air forces of a state other than Canada that are lawfully present in Canada.

This description of the law is amazingly clear.

I mention these Criminal Code provisions to reveal how seriously Canadians feel about the situation and to point them out to Bloc members who would quote any variety of dictionaries to put their own slant on the matter. The definition we are interested in is the definition of the law, the definition of our Criminal Code.

Just as Canadians are upset about the situation, the member's actions infuriate them even more because of the lack of action by Parliament. Parliament's inaction in the situation is inexcusable. People are outraged there has not been any government investigation. They cannot understand why the federal government does not see it as an important issue.

Is the member's behaviour acceptable for a parliamentarian? Canadians deserve an answer to that question. This is what we are asking for. They fear the government is simply papering over the matter. One newspaper article I read in December 1995 stated: "Sources in Ottawa say the government, fearful of turning Bouchard and Jacob into martyrs, quietly has decided-"

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

I hesitate to interrupt any member on a debate of such importance, but it is important that we clearly respect our parliamentary regulations, our own regulations, and not mention or identify any member by name but only by riding or by portfolio. Even in the context of a quote from a publication or otherwise in the House, we cannot do indirectly what we cannot do directly.

Instead of referring to the member by name we must recognize him or her by riding. I ask for the member's co-operation. It was probably not his intent, but by the same token and because of the importance of the debate we should be very respectful of one another and observe all the rules and procedures of the House.

[Philip Mayfield, Reform, Cariboo—Chilcotin, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank you for your intervention. There was no intention of disrespect. If there is I apologize. I will repeat the quote: "Sources in Ottawa say the government, fearful of turning Bouchard and" the member for Charlesbourg "into martyrs, quietly has decided to drop the matter". This quotation is taken from the Toronto Star of December 18, 1995.

Is this true? Is this what the government has done? Is this the motivation for lack of action? Where exactly does the government stand on the issue? We have not heard a position. We have not seen any action taken. Canadians want to know. Canadians do not deserve to have their voices smothered by a closure of this debate.

The Speaker said only two days ago:

The House today is being faced with one of the more serious matters we have been faced with in this 35th Parliament-I am of the opinion that nothing will be gained by delaying consideration of this issue to a later date.

I believe the charges are so grave against one of our own members that the House should deal with this accusation forthwith.

The Speaker assured all members that they would have an opportunity to speak to this grave matter. I believe I can speak for members of my caucus when I say I am offended by this motion of closure.

If the matter is so serious, why do the Liberals want to bring closure to this debate? Do they not want the interest of Canadians represented? Their actions are preposterous. This is an elitist attitude and it is undemocratic. It stifles the debate of the elected representatives of the people who are deeply concerned by the matter.

Canadians want it debated. They want answers to the questions raised by the communiqué. Let us not try to cover up the matter and choke the voices of the Canadian people. Canadians deserve to know and have a right to know whether the member's behaviour is in contempt or whether his participation in it was an offence to Parliament. For once let us allow Canadian people to be heard and continue this historic debate until the issue is completely aired, but that will not be.

The defence minister said that there were certain things we do and do not do in public life. I completely agree with that statement. That is why we must send the matter to the committee, investigate it, and learn if such behaviour by the member is acceptable for a public official. Above all, let us represent the interest of Canadians. Let us take seriously what our constituents are saying to us. Let the matter be clarified in Parliament for us and for all Canadians.

Before I close I need to mention the most crucial reason the actions of the member must be investigated. That reason is principle. From the argument I have just given the House can see that my colleague's question of privilege is not a personal attack. He has not taken these steps in an attempt to discredit the members of his family or his party.

The main point here is that the people of Canada have seen a member of this House make a mistake, if we wish to use that term. We all make mistakes, in this House and everywhere. Life is a series of mistakes. We say things we should not. We do things we should not do and sometimes we do things we do not even know are wrong. But in the end Mr. Speaker, there are consequences for our actions which you as the Speaker of this House must fairly allot.

Canadians perceive that the member for Charlesbourg has made a mistake, but to rectify the situation Parliament has done nothing. It has not even investigated the accuracy of the accusation. I would be incensed if these accusations were flying around and I was being accused with no recourse, no redress, no way to clear my name.

If we deal with this matter and send this issue to committee as a matter of contempt to be considered by the committee, we at least tell Canadians that their leaders are treated the same as every other Canadian before the law. It tells them that politicians do suffer the consequences of improper and illegal actions, that equality matters all the time, even when it does not benefit the politicians or the elite. Let us do the right and honourable thing and send this matter to the committee for investigation. Let the committee receive the whole issue without the masks and the deletions.

[Peter Milliken, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to have an opportunity to participate in this debate. It has raised some very serious issues that the House will want to consider before the motion is voted on. When I speak to the motion I speak not just of the motion as originally proposed but to all the amendments. We are now debating a subamendment to the main motion.

It is instructive to look at the terms of the original motion and the terms of the amendment the government proposed, which in my view makes the most sense and which will clarify the situation for everyone if it is adopted. I know the Reform members will disagree with what I have to say but they are going to have to listen to this because it is important.

The main motion wants the House to decide the issue in advance, decide that sedition has occurred in this instance and that the matter of the seditious acts of the hon. member for Charlesbourg

ought to be referred to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs for study.

If the issue is whether or not sedition occurred, and I submit that is what the committee should be studying, why would the House express its view on the actions of the hon. member for Charlesbourg before the committee undertakes its study? If it were adopted here in the House as the view of the House, that would be the end of the matter and there would be no point in having the committee study it.

The whole purpose of the referral to committee is to give the hon. member for Charlesbourg an opportunity to present his side of the case. There is a hearing in committee. The committee hears witnesses and evidence. The committee acts as a tribunal or court. When it makes a determination of the issue it brings a report to the House which the House can accept or reject. The matter could also be referred back to the committee for further study or with directions that the committee do certain things or present a certain kind of report. The fact is the House is master of this procedure. The House refers the matter to committee and the committee is the one that does the investigating. The committee acts as a kind of judge, although the House retains the right to vary the judgment of the committee. It is like a right of appeal.

Hon. members opposite seem to have missed the point. Certainly the hon. member for Okanagan-Similkameen-Merritt who proposed the motion spent three or four months studying the issue in great detail before he came to the House. The hon. member missed that famous reference to a case in the time of James I that my colleague from Vancouver Quadra came up with the other day. I would have thought that after four or five months the hon. member for Okanagan-Similkameen-Merritt would have had every precedent that could be found, but he did not. Nevertheless, in spite of all that research, he came up with a motion that in effect condemned the hon. member for Charlesbourg before the hon. member had any opportunity to explain his position before some of his colleagues. This is taking away the hon. member's elementary rights.

I know the Reform Party has trouble with law and order issues. I am glad to see the hon. member for Calgary Southeast. I know she is still ashen from the treatment she got in her caucus meeting yesterday. I read all about it in the media this morning. Perhaps later tonight we will hear her make a speech on the subject and she will tell us about law and order.

I know the hon. member for Calgary Centre has flown the coop because of the treatment he received at the hands of his colleagues in caucus yesterday. I suspect the member for Calgary West skipped the caucus. If he had any sense he would have stayed away. If he had a lot of sense he would join the Liberal Party.

These members are being treated like that because they have views on law and order that are at variance with their colleagues. One wonders if the hon. members were not whipped at their caucus meeting because that is certainly a practice some of their colleagues seem to favour. They want to introduce whipping in the Criminal Code again. When we deal with sedition, we are not necessarily talking about whipping. I hope that is clear to members of the Reform Party. I know they love that kind of punishment and feel it should be meted out to teach people lessons.

In this case we have to give people the right to be heard. That is an elementary principle of our criminal law system which I hope I do not have to repeat too often for hon. members opposite. It is one we have to follow in this House when we look at the facts of this case. I submit that the proper procedure is to refer this matter to the committee and allow the committee to hear evidence and come up with a determination as to whether or not sedition has occurred.

The subamendment that has been proposed to the government's motion wants some words put back in. They have changed it a little bit. They have weakened slightly but they want "seditious nature of the" put in. I cannot tell this House how much I oppose this amendment.

In my view, the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs is the proper place for a determination of the issues that are before the House in this motion. The whole matter should be referred to the committee for study without the House expressing its opinion on the merits or otherwise of the matter. That is the point which seems to have gone clear over the heads of hon. members opposite.

I have tried to clarify this. Some of my colleagues on this side of the House have also tried to clarify it. I hope the point is now clear. We will vote against the subamendment. We will support the amendment. Once the motion is amended, I will be happy to support it.

I know members of the Bloc Quebecois are nervous nellies over this issue. They have realized that one of their colleagues could be in trouble if the committee makes a finding that is contrary to their hon. colleague's best interests. That is a matter for the committee to decide.

I am not going to argue the merits or demerits of this case one bit in the House. I am quite prepared, since I am a member of that committee, to wait and hear the evidence before the committee and make up my mind after I have heard the evidence. I will give the hon. member for Charlesbourg the benefit of the doubt, as any trier of law or fact in this country should do, as I am sure you would also do, Mr. Speaker, if you were sitting on that committee. It is what

any member of this House should do in the event the committee comes up with a report on the issue.

The fact is that is the question which has to be decided. It will be decided in the committee, not here. I am not going to argue the merits of the case or even discuss the law relating to sedition in the course of my remarks. I want to stick with the procedure that is being followed in the House to ensure that we are treating one of our colleagues fairly by giving him the benefit of the doubt in terms of what may or may not have transpired in relation to these events. That is something we have to do. He is entitled to the benefit of a reasonable doubt, as is every person who is accused of an offence in Canada.

I want to turn to some of the remarks made by hon. members opposite this afternoon in the course of their speeches on a subject that is dear to their hearts, including the hon. member for Calgary Southeast. That is the issue of closure on this debate. They have suggested that by limiting debate today we are restricting the right of Canadians to hear about this very important subject.

Normally I have opposed closure in the past and I usually do now. Our government has used it sparingly and only in cases where it is an obvious necessity. In this case there is no need for the debate to be a long one. This is a question of referring a matter to a committee for study. There will be a further opportunity to debate this matter when the committee reports to the House.

Hon. members opposite can rant and rave all they want about restrictions today. However, the fact is that some day, at some future time, assuming the motion carries, the procedure and House affairs committee will table a report in the House and somebody will move concurrence in that report triggering another debate in the House.

There is a lot of opportunity for debate. There will be ample opportunity for committee hearings. If hon. members want to go to the committee to make their views known, I have no doubt the chairman and other members of the procedure and House affairs committee will entertain those applications to be heard. If members have such strong views on this and feel they can contribute evidence to the committee, I am sure they will be heard and I am sure they will want to be heard.

This is not a motion on which closure is inappropriate, particularly given the amount of time we have already spent on the matter. I want to point out that when closure is applied under Standing Order 57 the House continues to sit until 11 o'clock at night. Mr. Speaker, you will recall that just a couple of weeks ago we heard hon. members opposite talk about the evils of closure.

On Monday, March 4 the government imposed closure on a motion which allowed for the reinstatement of bills. I notice that hon. members opposite have reinstated some of their own bills under the aegis of this great motion.

[Ronald J. Duhamel, Liberal, St. Boniface, MB]

Even though they criticized it.

[Peter Milliken, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

They thought it was the worst thing since I cannot recall what event. They were just appalled that the government would do this; yet, when they got the chance to reintroduce their private members' bills, up they got, chucked them in and said: "We want this back to where it was at the beginning". If they were principled they would have said: "No, we will only take first reading of this bill and put it through all of the stages. We will go to the committee and try to have it made votable and we will take our chances on the draw and getting it on the order of precedence". But that was not the way they proceeded. Once they saw the opening which was provided for them by a generous and beneficent Liberal government, they jumped into the loop.

Let us go back to the debate of Monday, March 4. I recall some of the speeches because I was quoted extensively. I enjoyed the debate. I will not quote from my speech, but I will quote some of my colleagues opposite.

The hon. member for Calgary Centre made a wonderful speech. He said as recorded at page 214 of Hansard :

That is anti-democratic and very autocratic. The use of closure which we just voted on is a violation of the freedom of speech within the House. It is a violation of the freedom to openly express our thoughts and our points of view. By limiting the debate, by limiting the time in which we can debate this, we are forcing members of Parliament to be quiet. We are allowing this freely, democratically elected Prime Minister to be a dictator and he is dictating to us by his very action.

What happened on March 4? What time did the House adjourn when there were no more speakers to stand up and speak on the motion? I have Hansard here for that day and my goodness, it tells us that the House adjourned at 7.25 p.m., and that was after some votes.

[Ronald J. Duhamel, Liberal, St. Boniface, MB]

Surely not.

[Peter Milliken, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Yes. We had a 30 minute bell and then we had two votes. In other words, the debate collapsed essentially at 6.40 p.m. Of course we had not debated the motion all day. In the course of the afternoon we debated another matter. We debated concurrence in a committee report until about 6.15 p.m. or 6.20 p.m. Then there was a brief debate. Two members opposite spoke. Then there was a 30 minute bell and then there were two votes.

We could have debated until 11 o'clock at night, but we stopped at 7.30 p.m. Why did we stop? Because the Reformers apparently were not opposed to this. Their right to speak was apparently being cut off, according to the hon. member for Calgary Centre, who used to be the Reform whip, but when it came time for them to continue speaking, they strangely ran out of speakers. Is it because it was so late? Do they not like speaking at night? What do they do at night? Why were they not here? I was here. I was ready to sit until 11 o'clock but hon. members opposite were not. Where were they?

Had they not come to Ottawa? Maybe they were still at home in Calgary. I do not know where the hon. members were.

Let me read another quote into the record. This was said just before the bells started at 6.40 p.m. I know the hon. member for Capilano-Howe Sound was one of those who spoke that day. I could quote him too. I would like to, I just have to find the place.

Let me read from the other speech of the hon. member for Kootenay East, that most pious of speakers from the Reform Party. He has that very deep voice and he is able to make it sound so convincing. I know some hon. members get carried away when they hear the hon. member for Kootenay East. Had I stayed in the House throughout his speech I am sure I would have been transported myself.

"This is a very sad way to start the second session of the 35th Parliament of Canada". In fact, as I recall he almost wept as he said those words. He said: "We can only hope that the people of Canada will not pay attention but will talk to each other and say it is really Liberal, Tory, same old story". He is quite a poet.

I could also go back in the same speech on page 270 of Hansard where he said:

I suggest that the government has shown absolute and total contempt for the people of Canada in the way it has conducted the affairs on this, the very first motion of the second session of this Parliament.

Yesterday that same member was pontificating in his grandest style when the deputy House leader came in and gave notice of closure on the debate we are discussing right now, in fact, the notice of the closure motion that we adopted earlier today.

The hon. member for Kootenay East was interrupted in the course of his remarks. As was recorded on page 666 of Hansard he was in the middle of his speech. The government House leader interrupted him with notice of closure and the poor hon. member for Kootenay East almost had a fit. He said: ``Mr. Speaker, that is absolutely outrageous''. I heard him on television. He was simply beside himself that this was happening and yet let us watch the clock today.

Mr. Speaker, I know you are prepared to stay here until 11 p.m. and so am I. I am really looking forward to hearing speeches from members of the Reform Party until late into the night. If they say their rights are being trampled on and that their right to express their opinion on this matter is being cut off, I want to make sure that they take full advantage of the time that is available until 11 p.m. to permit them to express their views.

If they are not prepared to use it on this motion on which they claimed such outrage on March 4, I hate to think how little there will be today. In fact, I would be willing to wager that by about 6.40 p.m. today they will stop. Do you know why? Because at 6.30 p.m. we cannot revert to the Government Orders that are called for today. As soon as we get past 6.30 p.m. they know they have used up the full government day and overtime after that is extra for a closure motion.

I do not think they have enough members here to carry the debate anyway because guess what, their members do not think this is important and they have all gone home. That is what I think has happened. I am not saying they are not here in the House, I just think they have gone home. I do not blame them but some of us are going to stay and do our duty tomorrow.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[Peter Milliken, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Hon. members opposite laugh but they do not realize that I will be here tomorrow for the day. It is a duty day for the hon. member for Kingston and the Islands and he will be here, Mr. Speaker, as I suspect you will.