Debates of March 26th, 1996

Department Of Public Works And Government Services Act

[René Laurin, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Mr. Speaker, since we have yet another member slated to speak to Bill C-7, I would like to know whether it will be possible for us later on, for the time remaining, to organize things in such a way that we can share our time, as was asked by the other member, with unanimous consent. Would it be possible to do that again?

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

Before reverting to the question about unanimous consent on Bill C-3 agreed on earlier today, I will nonetheless ask the House whether there are other members wishing to speak to Bill C-7.

The hon. member for Kamouraska-Rivière-du-Loup has the floor.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup, QC]

Mr. Speaker, Bill C-7 seeks to establish the Department of Public Works and Government Services and to amend and repeal certain acts. Why was this department set up? It is probably in order to improve its services, increase its efficiency and allow it to operate in the most appropriate way in the future.

However, this piece of legislation does not contain any change to deal with the very blatant flaws currently found in the system. As a new member of the committee on government operations, I was able to how centralized the procurement operation of the federal government.

Granted, they are trying to find ways to ensure that procurement is made at the lowest cost. They are also trying to ensure some openness in the procurement process. However, they forgot a very important concern: is that process to the benefit of Quebec, of Canada and of the various regions of this country and does it allow for development of those regions on a fair basis?

In committee, I was told, for example, that the figures on the actual breakdown of government procurements between the various provinces were not available.

This to me is a major flaw because, while they put forward a reform of the unemployment insurance system, while they say they will try to find ways of helping the regions hardest hit by the reform, regions with seasonal economies or with an economy dependent on natural resources, they cannot put forward real measures devised to give new impetus to these regions in diversifying their economy. One of the more concrete ways to do so would be for the government to ensure that its procurement program has some impact throughout the country and that it can efficiently assess this impact.

During the 1970s, the federal government opened a number of offices, for instance to process tax returns and other similar information, which had some kind of synergic effect in some areas, but we do not see that anymore and we cannot even get this kind of information nowadays.

Another element which we think is being somewhat overlooked in this bill is the fact that federal members of Parliament from all political stripes should be consulted and kept informed of any government contract awarded in the federal ridings they represent.

Right now, there is no systematic information mechanism to ensure that the public is made more aware of what is going on. One criticism that we can make-and I have seen this in my riding in the last few months-is the following: what process do small businesses have to follow to be eligible to join the bidding process and to be included in the computerized contractors system. It is very complicated and very hard to gain access to this network but even tougher to reach the insiders, those who know how the procurement system really works. Let me give you a very concrete example by telling you about an experience a company in my riding went through.

There was a call for tenders for the building of fibre glass shelters. Upon seeing the ad in the newspapers, a company in my riding decided, all in good faith, to request all the information it needed. After reading the documentation-and I have seen all of it-it dawned on us that it was impossible to develop a proposal based on the information made available to companies.

To make things worse, the company called to get additional information but could not get any. That came about because the project was developed with a particular company in mind, and even though the government called for tenders, it was in fact already a done deal. Under such circumstances, it is impossible to compete

because the companies are not even provided with all the information they need.

So, with this bill, the government would have had a great opportunity to act on this issue and on the creation of the department, and to provide for transparency and get rid of the old myth that government procurement is always based on patronage and also to deal with the whole issue of administrative contracts. There is still a lot of room for improvement. The government could have done a lot more to better target its action.

They could also have tried to make public servants more aware of the money they were spending. We are often told, these days, that calls for tenders are done correctly and in such a way that anyone can bid on them, but the government never tried to have a real impact on the development of small or medium size businesses in our regions. What would be more meaningful in an area with high unemployment than to inform businesses in that area and to have federal civil servants going on a tour of these businesses to make sure that they can take part in the procurement system, have the chance to know exactly how it works and submit proposals, answer calls for bids and get contracts?

We have seen this as members of Parliament for the last two years and a half. The system is often made in such a way that people with a lot of potential and capabilities and who are already part of the system get the information they need and are encouraged to perform even better. But our responsibility in government is not only to make sure the strong and the rich get what they need, but also to see to it that new types of small and medium size businesses can take off, develop as well as create and maintain jobs. The federal government has still a lot to do in that regard. I think some progress was made in recent years to make tendering more available. There remains much to do but I can see no will to do it in the bill before us.

The Bloc Quebecois' approach is based on government transparency and that of its administration. Currently, anyone trying to deal with the government or the public service is confronted with a colossal maze preventing them from getting more information.

If the example I gave earlier was an isolated case, we could say that it is an exceptional case, but there are also others. In my riding, well known businesses, medium size and large ones that have been operating for many years are having a lot of difficulty finding their way around in the government procurement process, and I believe that there is work to be done in this regard.

There is an element which, of course, cannot be solved by the bill on the public works department, but which is always present in these situations. It is the question of the political party fundraising. As you know, Quebec has a law which provides that only individuals can make donations to a political party. No bank, no union, no community association, no foundation can make donations and claim a deduction.

In the federal government, things are different. Businesses, unions, community groups, everybody can make donations to a political party. This does not necessarily mean that businesses are dishonest, but it can give rise to conflicts of interest. I believe that if we change the law governing contributions to political parties along those lines, there would be more openness and transparency in the awarding of contracts, and I believe that would be much more appropriate.

Another element the Bloc Quebecois considers as important is the establishment of a code for contracting out that would force the government to adequately monitor the use of outside contractors and to make the process transparent. The monitoring process should be acceptable for all the parties involved in this important question. The contracting out process is a current issue and it is a dynamic process which can be very profitable. On the other hand, as public organizations, we must ensure that we do this with enough visibility, allowing people to see that their money is spent properly.

I would like to come back on the consultations, on the information required by the contracting out process and on the role MPs must play. A federal member of Parliament, regardless of his or her political affiliation, is someone who has been elected and who is responsible for representing his riding as far as legislative issues are concerned. But he has more than legislative responsibilities. Administrative decisions have impacts which are very real, and one of them has to do with public procurement. There are public expenditures of this kind.

The elected representative has the power to question government on all its expenditures. However, can we do that job properly if we do not have the necessary tools to really know what the federal public administration is doing in our riding? That kind of information would be very useful and could even help in the elaboration of economic development strategies for a given region. An area that does not benefit from a lot of government investments could think of attracting some or decide to continue looking for other kinds of investments. If it does not benefit from that kind of investments, it could try to find out why not.

How could we do things otherwise? Could we have federal civil servants give business owners up-to-date information? There could be another reason. Perhaps some ridings do not get many federal contracts, not only because the necessary information is not

available, but because they do not try hard enough to get it. There is an interesting economic potential that could be developed at a very low cost.

The government is constantly seeking ways to create jobs. Well, one of the ways to do it would be to make sure that its purchasing is done fairly and appropriately in all areas of the country. So there has to be a process where everyone has a chance to compete and to be awarded a contract.

We, in the Bloc Quebecois, would also like to have a mechanism for blowing the whistle on any waste of public funds. It is not a matter of hitting people over the head. Perhaps we should follow the example of municipal governments. If you talk to a councillor or a mayor in a small municipality, you can be sure that, when money is spent on things that are not really necessary, they know it quickly because people see those things in their daily life; they see the work done at the street corner, they see everything. That is probably why municipal governments follow what goes on very closely.

At the federal level, governments may not have been as vigilant as they should have in the past, as is shown by our deficit. We can easily imagine the kind of unnecessary expenditures that are made regularly. In the fight against the deficit, if we did things right, if we followed the situation more closely, we could put less pressure on social programs and stop chasing unemployment insurance recipients. Instead of that, we could try to find the major elements that we have to work on in order to save money.

So there could be significant cuts in government spending. I think that it could imply greater accountability for public service employees. The area of government procurement may be a priority area where, in creating the department, the government could have clearly shown its desire to improve the situation in this regard. However, we do not find these elements in the bill as it stands.

There is another issue of interest to us, and it is the issue of advance payments by the government. This practice is used by public service employees and managers. These people are afraid of having their annual budget cut if they do not use all the resources allocated to them. In other words, when the end of the fiscal year is near, suddenly the money has to be spent to be sure that next year's budget will not be cut. We all have heard about that, we all have seen it in the departments. I think the government should have done something to provide for better control in this area.

Finally, the Department of Public Works is responsible for processing requisitions from other departments. Maybe there is a period during the year where the department should be particularly vigilant to see if these purchases are really necessary. Do they really need these things? Is it not at the beginning of the year that it is finally realized that the full amount budgeted is not really needed? The unnecessary purchases and horror stories we hear, which often take place at year's end, would be avoided.

The Department of Public Works must therefore be a credible watchdog over advance payments by departments. This department spends over 50 per cent of government commitments. In each department, the amount that can be authorized is minimal and responsibility rests with the department of public works. This is therefore very important because we are reviewing the act governing this department.

It is therefore very important to be sure, at this stage, that the bill contains all the means necessary to carry government purchasing into the 21st century, allows a sufficient degree of transparency and, above all, ensures that government spending benefits regional development.

For these reasons, I think that the government will have to review its bill and see whether amendments are not required.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

Is the House ready for the question?

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Some hon. members]

No.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

[Some hon. members]

Yea.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

All those opposed will please say nay.

[Some hon. members]

Nay.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

In my opinion the nays have it.

And more than five members having risen:

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

Call in the members.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

Pursuant to Standing Order 45, the division on the question now before the House stands deferred until 5.30 p.m. today, at which time the bells to call in the members will be sounded for not more than 15 minutes.

It is my duty, pursuant to Standing Order 38, to inform the House that the question to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment is as follows: The hon. member for Kamouraska-Rivière-du-Loup- unemployment insurance reform.

Points Of Order

[Marlene Catterall, Liberal, Ottawa West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. Pursuant to discussions earlier today, of which I am sure you are aware, I think you would find unanimous consent that the House return to Bill C-3 only for the purpose of allowing one speaker from each party on the bill.

This is on the understanding that the vote has already been taken on the bill. It has been approved by the House on the understanding as well that there will be no questions and comments and that the remaining time between now and 5.30 p.m. will be divided equally between the three parties for purposes of speaking. Should the debate conclude before 5.30 p.m. we would agree to call it 5.30 p.m. and proceed with the sounding of the bells for the vote at 5.30.

[René Laurin, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Mr. Speaker, we agree with everything suggested by the government deputy whip, except for the allocation of time. There has been consultation on this matter. Considering the time needed by the three speakers, I believe you will find there is consent to give ten minutes to the speaker from the government side, five minutes to the speaker from the Reform Party and the rest to the speaker from the Bloc Quebecois, for a total of 15 minutes.

The speaker from the government side told us that he would probably need only ten minutes and the speaker of the Reform Party said that five minutes will be enough. The rest of the time could be allocated to the Bloc Quebecois and if the debate ends before 5.30 p.m., we are ready to accept that the division take place at that time and that the debate cease at the same time. In other words, we will be ready to say that it is 5.30 p.m.

[Dale Johnston, Reform, Wetaskiwin, AB]

Mr. Speaker, we agree to those terms.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

The terms are clearly set out in requesting unanimous consent. The question has been put. Bill C-3 has been adopted. We are going back to simply put things on the record.

I will try to follow this as closely as possible with all of you. I would hope the member participating on behalf of the government would take approximately 10 minutes during his intervention, that the member for the Reform Party would take approximately 5 minutes, and that the remaining time would go to the member from the Bloc Quebecois. If it should all end before 5.30 p.m., I would see it as being 5.30 p.m.

In essence, I will follow that rotation. To facilitate the debate, I will go to the government, to the Reform Party and conclude with the member from the official opposition. Is there unanimous consent?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[George Proud, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Labour]

Mr. Speaker, this took a little while in arriving. We had a little juggling to do in the exchange of some different points of view. Finally we have agreed to end the day before 5.30 p.m., closing the debate on Bill C-3.

My remarks will be short. During the debate on Bill C-3 one aspect all hon. members will agree on is the desirability to administer labour law in Canada as efficiently as possible.

The government is committed to providing Canadian employers and workers with a stable environment in which to conduct labour relations. These goals are in essence the reason we have the legislation before us today.

Flexible federalism allows us to smooth out the rough edges where administrative difficulties arise. Ontario Hydro is a publicly held corporation constituted under the Ontario Power Corporations Act. It is the division of the enterprise responsible for the construction and operation of nuclear facilities in the province.

Currently this division includes Darlington, Pickering and Bruce generating stations and a number of other facilities.

This division groups together the three main power stations of Darlington, Pickering and Bruce and a number of other facilities.

Before the Supreme Court ruling in 1993, it had always been believed that the employees of Hydro Ontario nuclear power stations were governed by provincial labour standards.

Before the 1993 Supreme Court decision it was always believed that employees of nuclear facilities of Ontario Hydro were subject to provincial labour laws. This was not the case. Consequently the province and employees of the nuclear facilities found themselves in a complicated situation.

In effect 42 per cent of Ontario employees are subject to federal labour law while the remainder are subject to the labour laws of Ontario. As members of the House we are in a position today to enable both federal and provincial governments to untangle and to dispense with this dilemma.

At the same time it is certainly reasonable for hon. members to want a clear understanding of the effects these amendments will have. In 1993 the Supreme Court found that part I of the Canada Labour Code which governs industrial relations is applicable to employees of Ontario Hydro's nuclear facilities.

As a result of the decision it became clear that parts II and III of the Code and the Non-Smokers' Health Act also applied to these workers. Part II of the Code addressed occupational safety and health and Part III deals with labour standards, hours of work and such like.

The Supreme Court decision created a complicated and exceptional situation as employees, the company and unions must conform to two comparable but slightly different labour relation regimes. For example, Ontario Hydro and the unions must deal with two conciliation processes during the negotiation of collective agreements. In addition, they must conform with slightly different occupational safety and health regulations which provide essentially the same protection for workers. The provisions of the bill demonstrate the government's commitment to provide the parties with a stable labour relations environment.

Here is how the bill eliminates the problem of a split jurisdiction at Ontario Hydro. First, the company is exempted from having to comply with the Canada Labour Code. At the same time, the company is made subject to provincial labour laws which are incorporated by reference through federal regulation.

The mechanism may be triggered by passing regulations dealing with industrial relations, including ad hoc or emergency legislation, occupational health and safety matters, labour standards or workplace smoking rules and regulations. Once the regulations are in place, provincial laws can be applied to nuclear facilities.

In the case of collective bargaining, any bargaining agent that was recognized under part I of the Canada Labour Code would remain the bargaining agent under the provisions of the bill. This was a question that we were asked by the power workers of Ontario: would we guarantee that this would be the case? We said we could guarantee that it would be the case during the transition period and during the life of the agreement. That is all we can do. In fact, that is all anybody can do. It ensures successor rights to the bargaining agent and it prohibits other unions or associations from applying to represent that bargaining unit outside of regular procedures.

As I said, any collective agreement concluded under part I of the Canada Labour Code will continue in force until the life of the contract expires. That ensures that the rights, the privileges and the duties of both parties to the collective agreement remain intact. The solution is clear and it makes sense.

It is the desire of the government and the Government of Ontario to have all provincial labour laws apply to the province's nuclear facilities. Both governments agree that from a practical standpoint it is logical to have all legislation related to labour law at Ontario Hydro under one roof.

Since early 1994 both levels of government have been examining various ways of accomplishing this. Much discussion led to the development of Bill C-3.

However, the story does not end here. Nuclear generating stations in the provinces of New Brunswick and Quebec were also affected by the Supreme Court decision. The Point Lepreau generating station in New Brunswick and Quebec's Gentilly 2 appear to be in a legislative void for the purposes of labour law.

After crown immunity is lifted, the provisions of Bill C-3 can be applied to these nuclear facilities, thus eliminating the legislative void and providing a mechanism whereby provincial labour law may apply.

In addition, the mechanism may be applied to uranium mines in Saskatchewan which are also regulated by the Atomic Energy Control Act. The province of Saskatchewan has for many years been delivering its occupational safety and health programs to uranium mines in Saskatchewan. Strictly speaking, these mines are subject to the Canada Labour Code. There is no formal agreement between the two levels of government concerning the situation and the federal government would like to formalize the arrangement.

The way to do that would be to follow a similar route to that which is being done with Ontario Hydro, namely: to exempt these mines from application to part II of the Canada Labour Code; to incorporate Saskatchewan occupational safety and health laws into federal regulations; and to contract with the province of Saskatchewan to deliver its programs to these mines. There is a mechanism in part II of the code which could be used to achieve this, but only with respect to the occupational health and safety laws.

I want to stress that the passage of this bill will have no effect on the mandate of the Atomic Energy Control Board. The board has sole authority to ensure that the use of nuclear energy in Canada poses no undue risk to health, safety, security or to the environment.

For these reasons I ask all here today to support the bill. I know they will.

Before I sit down, I would like to thank all those who took part in the process. I thank members of the Bloc and the Reform Party who worked on the bill in the subcommittee. I thank the chairman of the subcommittee and other members, the clerk and the people from the department and the witnesses who appeared before us.

This bill simplifies the process. There is no need to have two or three jurisdictions looking after basically the same legislation. I thank all those who were so co-operative in helping me get passage of this bill.

[Dale Johnston, Reform, Wetaskiwin, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I am not sure if we are making parliamentary history today. It is the first time that we have debated a bill that has already passed through the House. Certainly, in my former life as a farmer I became accustomed to this sort of thing on occasion. Many times I closed the gate after the calves got out.

I am speaking to Bill C-3. Of course, this is precipitated by the fact that the Supreme Court in 1993 rendered a decision on labour relations in Canada that threw the atomic workers into a state of flux.

At Ontario Hydro, for instance, 42 per cent of the workers were under federal jurisdiction while the remaining 58 per cent were subject to the Ontario labour code. Workers in Quebec and New Brunswick were caught in a very similar bind. Needless to say, the situation led to more and more confusion and duplication, all of which was unnecessary and not conducive to good working relationships.

The importance of nuclear safety cannot be stressed enough. Indeed, it was a concern expressed by the Supreme Court and it is a concern to everyone who works at the nuclear facilities, to their families and all Canadians. A stable work environment will help to alleviate the uncertainty caused by this split jurisdiction.

The Reform Party does not oppose this bill. I would encourage the minister not to wait for future court rulings, but to move forward with the devolution of federal control in labour matters, devolving them to the provinces.

Part I of the labour code is currently under review and it would be an appropriate starting point for the minister, who I know is anxious to do away with duplication of service. The government is strapped with a $580 billion debt. I know the minister will do what is necessary to eliminate all duplication and overlap in order to downsize, and do his part to get the debt under control.

The minister will find that the workers, management and the people in my party would be most supportive of the direction taken by him.

I believe that labour and management have a common goal in maintaining a productive workplace and we as legislators should do all we can to advance that goal. We can facilitate this by relinquishing control over the bureaucratic regulations that stand in the way of sound labour relations. Bill C-3 is a step in the proper direction.

I encourage the minister to immediately convene negotiations with those provinces whose nuclear workers are caught in this legislative vacuum and allow these employees to be brought under provincial governance as soon as possible. I believe the government owes the nuclear workers of Canada that much.

When we were talking about the division of time I suggested that I would be very brief and I am going to be true to my word. I believe that one should be frugal with one's words as well as one's mind.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

I thank the hon. member for his co-operation.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC]

Mr. Speaker, as you know, today has been a very eventful day. So I would like to thank our collaborators behind the scenes, especially Sylvain Gauthier, who kept his cool under pressure.

As the parliamentary secretary knows, we support Bill C-3. It might be useful to remind those listeners who have just tuned in that the purpose of Bill C-3 is to devolve responsibility for labour relations to the provinces that will ask for it through regulatory negotiations. I think we should also remind them that bills such as this one are related to the Canada Labour Code, an area from which the federal government is willing to withdraw.

This bill results from a ruling made by the highest court in the land, the Supreme Court. In 1993, the Supreme Court ruled in response to an appeal filed by the union that part I of the Canada Labour Code governing labour relations applies to the employees of nuclear plants, including Ontario Hydro.

It is important to keep this in mind because Parliament has a duty to adjust to court rulings. Through this bill, Parliament is correcting a situation that would have been extremely harmful as it would have created a legal vacuum. The parliamentary secretary referred to it in the case of New Brunswick and Quebec. This situation would have put us in an uncomfortable situation that no one wants by allowing two different labour systems to coexist.

We must remember that it makes a lot of sense to ask the provinces to define, frame and apply provincial legislation in this area, as the Ontario government has done for 50 years in the area of nuclear energy, for example. So we must commend what the federal government has done by trying to maintain the status quo.

We must acknowledge that Bill C-3 concerns not exclusively but mainly Ontario. I would like to remind you that, of the 10,000 nuclear workers across the country, there are 6,000 to 8,000 in Ontario, 700 in Quebec, about 500 in New Brunswick and 500 in Saskatchewan's uranium mines.

The situation was particularly worrying for Ontario. That it why they followed the work of the parliamentary committee very closely. Both parties were heard, since the nuclear industry accounts for 60 per cent of electricity generation in Ontario.

I am not saying that we did not try to introduce amendments to Bill C-3. Although we agree with the principle of devolving responsibility for this area-and we hope that this will extend to other areas and that the Minister of Labour can influence the minister responsible for intergovernmental relations and other ministers in this cabinet to transfer certain areas of jurisdiction-this bill nonetheless does not meet with unanimous approval.

It does not meet with unanimous approval first of all because Ontario Hydro union members are not too crazy about being subject to provincial labour legislation in light of the Harris government's shift to the right.

Even so, we, in the official opposition, did not succumb to the temptation of seeing things the same way as workers who did not have an overall view. The government took the overall view of withdrawing from the area of labour relations in the nuclear industry because the provinces, and Ontario, New Brunswick and Quebec in particular, had respectively 15, 30 and 40 years experience in that area.

I am thrilled at the thought of being able to rely on the support of the Minister of Human Resources Development, whose global outlook on things make him take an interest in matters as diverse as unemployment and energy, which in his mind are both explosive issues.

That said, let me remind you that we suggested amendments that the government rejected, with a rare elegance mind you, but rejected nonetheless. I owe to the truthfulness of our deliberations to remind you that the Quebec government had contacted the hon. member for Saint-Léonard and Minister of Labour, requesting that the applicable Quebec legislation be referred to specifically in his bill.

It must be understood that, while we agree in principle with the bill, we would rather this not be done through regulations but through references in the act instead. I understand the minister for giving in to his officials, explaining that he was not comfortable with the idea of yielding to Quebec's demands, because of the risk of creating a precedent that could have been detrimental to New Brunswick, Ontario and Saskatchewan.

At any rate, Quebec's position concerning Bill C-3, which, I remind you, we agree with in principle, would have been that it should refer directly to provincial legislation rather than to regulations and that it should state that, as soon as the act came into effect, after receiving royal assent, all provincial legislation regarding those employed by the companies governed by the Atomic Energy Control Act will become applicable.

For information, the legislation provides that, when the Government of Canada, through its minister responsible, the Minister of Labour, and his Quebec counterpart have negotiated an agreement, no third party will be authorized to request that the legislation apply on that territory. Naturally, the authority to negotiate rests with the province or the provincial government.

I think that it is important to remember that, in Quebec's case, six pieces of legislation are involved, including the act respecting labour standards, the Quebec equivalent to the federal government's Labour Code, Part III, and the act to ensure that essential services are maintained. We always refer to this legislation with great pride, because it was passed in Quebec by the government of the late René Lévesque and is definitely the answer to our labour relations problems. The Minister of Labour should follow that model, so as to have similar provisions in the federal labour code.

The measures that will also be applied through regulations are, of course, the provincial labour code-it is essential to the bill-Quebec's occupational health and safety act, its charter of rights, as well as all the regulations governing the construction industry.

You would have been touched by all the excitement around the Minister of Labour. His whole staff was mobilized. This bill is a pet project of the minister. His staff was truly excited and wanted to make sure that we could pass the bill as quickly as possible. I can understand the minister's enthusiasm; indeed, promoting democracy is always an exciting moment in the career of a public figure. This is the first bill sponsored by the new Minister of Labour in this House. Still, it would have been nice if he had accepted the amendments proposed by the opposition. As you know, one would be hard pressed to find a single one of these amendments that is either unreasonable or unjustified.

Yet, our amendments were rejected. Nevertheless, we will support the bill, but we feel it would have been appropriate to refer directly to the act, instead of going through a regulatory framework which has a major drawback in that it does not get Parliament involved.

In the case of a bill on labour relations, it is vital that Parliament be involved.

In any case, the debate is over and the issue has been dealt with. As a democrat, I accept the parliamentary rules and I will abide by the decision made by the sub-committee.

I also want to remind this House that, should a labour conflict or an emergency situation occur, it will incumbent on each participating province to ensure that the situation or conflict is resolved under provincial laws.

In spite of the labour minister's enthusiasm because of the imminent passing of Bill C-3, the real test for him will definitely be the anti-scab legislation. As you know, consultations were held across the country and the Sims report was tabled, so as to immediately give an indication of what the government should do regarding Part I of the labour code.

I think the government will have to introduce an anti-scab bill. This will be a test of political courage. As you know, in politics, courage is a rather rare commodity; moreover, it is unevenly distributed. Mr. Speaker, I would go so far as to say that it is generally more prevalent on your left than on your right, but I realize you cannot do anything about that.

Again, the real test will be the anti-scab legislation. We urge the government to introduce this legislation. I even told the minister, in sub-committee, that if he wishes so, we are prepared to continue our work until the government can propose a model.

What does an anti-scab bill entail? The Quebec government provides a very eloquent example. We are talking about an instrument of last resort-after all, a strike is also an ultimate means, not a marginal one. Yet, for reasons that are often related to the deterioration of labour relations, a power struggle ultimately results in a strike action. Consequently, it is necessary to have a tool to alleviate tensions under such circumstances.

This instrument helps labour relations in such a context, because workers who go on strike, usually on the advice of their union, are aware that even if they walk out they will not lose their job once the conflict is over.

I will conclude by saying that we will support this bill, that the work in committee was rather pleasant, in spite of the fact that the very reasonable amendments proposed by the Bloc Quebecois were rejected. I remind the minister that we hope to work on an anti-scab bill. This will be the true measure of his ability to deal with labour relation issues.

The House resumed consideration of the motion.

Canada Transportation Act

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

It being 5.30 p.m., pursuant to the order previously made, the House will now proceed to the taking of the deferred division at the third reading stage of Bill C-14, an act to continue the National Transportation Agency as the Canadian Transportation Agency, to consolidate and revise the National Transportation Act, 1987 and the Railway Act and to amend or repeal other acts as a consequence.

Call in the members.

(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the following division:)

[The Speaker]

I declare the motion carried.

(Motion agreed to and bill read the third time.)