Debates of March 28th, 1996

Canadian Armed Forces

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, if we are talking about credibility, let us put the facts on the table.

It was the minister of fisheries in April 1993, when the Liberal Party was in opposition, who called for an inquiry into the whole question of the deployment to Somalia. This government delivered on that particular promise once it came into office and once we were assured that any commission would not interfere with the judicial process that we inherited and that was under way with the courts martial.

On the incident that has recently come to light, how can the hon. member talk about the credibility of the government when it was the officials in the government, the deputy minister and the chief of the defence staff, who drew these very troubling matters to the attention of the information commissioner? There was an internal investigation by the military police.

If that is not good enough for the hon. member, there has been an investigation by a third party, the information commissioner. He has rendered his judgment. It was made public yesterday and action will be taken. Those matters in his report parallel the facts in the military police report. The military police report is with the department's lawyers. That is all I can say on the matter at this point so as not to injure anyone who may be involved.

Canadian Security Intelligence Service

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, on February 29, when questioned by the hon. member for Bellechasse on the presence of a Russian mole within CSIS, the Solicitor General of Canada answered, and I quote: "I have been assured by the director of CSIS that there is no mole within the service".

Today, a full month later, does the solicitor general still stand by the statement he made then?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Solicitor General of Canada]

Yes, Mr. Speaker.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, in his response to the hon. member for Bellechasse, on February 29, the solicitor general also said, and I quote: "With respect to his reference to a former CSIS contract employee, this involves the internal management of the service. I cannot go into his relationship for privacy reasons".

It is the duty and the responsibility of the solicitor general to now inform the House about this whole affair. Was Pierre Roy not fired precisely because he had information involving CSIS management in the matter of the alleged Russian spy?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I was advised that Mr. Roy was not a regular employee of CSIS, but rather a contract employee, whose contract was not renewed.

National Defence

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, in his report on the defence department's handling of the Somalia affair, Canada's information commissioner, John Grace, found evidence of a widespread cover-up at DND. Documents were either destroyed, altered or disguised and unlawful orders were given to the rank and file.

Instead of getting to the bottom of this outrage, the defence minister thought it was more important to try and defend General Boyle by stressing that the general was misled by his subordinate.

My question is for the defence minister. Is it the position of the minister that as long as he or his senior officers are misled from below they are not accountable for what happens at the defence department?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, contrary to what the hon. member has said, it was not me yesterday who uttered the quote claiming that General Boyle, chief of the defence staff, was mislead by subordinates.

That was contained in Mr. Grace's letter. Mr. Grace was quite explicit in saying that the present chief of the defence staff played no part in any of the wrongdoing that was outlined in his letter.

We are not trying to hide. How can the hon. member accuse us of hiding when it was the department that went outside the department to the information commissioner, sought his assistance and co-operated with the investigation.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the minister's position always seems to be that whenever things go wrong in the department, someone other than those in authority is responsible. Canadians do not buy that.

The minister bungled the handling of the airborne videos, video I, video II and video III. He stood back and watched while DND lawyers intimidated witnesses to discredit the Somalia inquiry. He rubber stamped the questionable promotions and appointments such as those of Anne-Marie Doyle and Colonel Peter Kenward. Now we have the DND cover-up.

If the minister is not willing to accept responsibility for the actions of the defence department, if he cannot hold senior people in the department accountable for the actions of the department, will the Minister of National Defence resign?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, you will forgive me but if I wanted to ask for the indulgence of the House and impinge on your time, I could make an equally eloquent case which could come to the same conclusion to deal with the leader of the Reform Party.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, this minister oversees a $10 billion department. He is responsible for the national and international security of Canadians.

Over the past two years, it has been painfully clear that DND is out of control, senior officers are openly flouting the law and the minister is either unwilling or incapable of doing anything about it.

Since we get no answers from the minister, I ask the Prime Minister whether he will take the responsibility for the chaos at DND and demand the resignation of his incompetent Minister of National Defence.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the Somalia problem started when we were in opposition. We asked for an inquiry ourselves. That was a problem that existed before we formed the government.

We are trying to get to the bottom of it. We have an inquiry. We extended its mandate to make sure that everything is in the open and that the people of Canada know what happened when this incident occurred, which was before we were the government.

As far as the Minister of National Defence and myself are concerned, I would not accept his resignation if he were to offer it because under the circumstances, he has done a very good job. We are very supportive and proud of him.

Francophones Outside Quebec

[Pierrette Venne, Bloc, Saint-Hubert, QC]

Mr. Speaker, in August 1994, the federal government announced with great pomp that it would ask 26 federal departments and agencies to implement action plans to meet the needs of francophones outside Quebec. However, the Commissioner of Official Languages himself said that this initiative was a failure.

My question is for the Deputy Prime Minister. Will the Minister of Canadian Heritage finally realize that, by not fulfilling her obligations under the Official Languages Act, she is condoning the assimilation of French speaking people, to the tune of 38 per cent in Ontario and 75 per cent in British Columbia?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Canadian Heritage]

Mr. Speaker, the best protection against assimilation is to have a country which is called Canada and which protects minority rights from coast to coast.

This morning, here in Ottawa, the Franco-Ontarian theatre was inaugurated to allow us to see French plays. Also, in the context of 41-42, I have already contacted the new President of the Treasury Board, to make sure that the level of recognition, as mentioned by Mr. Goldbloom, which was already at 80 per cent will go up to 100 per cent. This is the objective of 41-42.

[Pierrette Venne, Bloc, Saint-Hubert, QC]

Mr. Speaker, Canada is the one responsible for the current assimilation rate. Instead of crowing over makeshift measures, will the heritage minister follow up on the most recent report of the official languages commissioner, who states that, since the implementation of the government initiative, French speaking people have lost services instead of gaining new ones?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Canadian Heritage]

Mr. Speaker, first, I already met with the official languages commissioner. The truth is-and I know it hurts the Bloc Quebecois-that there are currently more young Canadians who speak both languages than at any other time in our history.

Will you recognize the work done by the hon. member for Ottawa-Vanier? Will you recognize the work done by the hon. member for Madawaska-Victoria? Will you recognize the work done by the hon. member for Timiskaming-French River? Will you recognize that, in this House, there are 16 French speaking members from outside Quebec who proudly represent their constituents in their language? French is spoken everywhere in Canada.

National Defence

[Jack Frazer, Reform, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Mr. Speaker, Canadians are justifiably proud of the Canadian armed forces. That is why the events of recent years have been so tragic.

The House cannot stand idly by and allow a lack of leadership in defence to destroy the trust of the House, the media and Canadians in our troops.

I ask the defence minister, will he put politics aside, consider the reputation of our military and step down so that new leadership can set things right?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister answered that question.

[Monte Solberg, Reform, Medicine Hat, AB]

I would not be that cocky if I were you, Dave.

[Jack Frazer, Reform, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Mr. Speaker, as a former member of the armed forces I know the importance of leadership. I know the importance of morale and I know that morale has been crushed this past year by a lack of leadership. Still, most of our troops are dedicated professionals as evidenced by the courageous work of those who realized that what they were being told to do was wrong, and at great personal risk, did the right thing.

Will the minister also do the right thing? Will he show true leadership by example, accept responsibility for what has gone wrong on his watch and resign?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I do not want to repeat the same answer.

The hon. member talks about taking politics out of the issue. I think that is very good advice. I ask that the Reform Party do it. This has nothing to do with the men and women who are serving in Bosnia or in Haiti.

This has to do with a very difficult problem that occurred before the government was elected. It has been a very difficult problem to handle, to make sure that we are fair to the institution and to the principles of basic justice.

I am as concerned as the members on that side about recent events, especially in the facts outlined in Mr. Grace's letter. If the hon. member were to read Mr. Grace's letter he would see that in this case the department has acted extremely responsibly by getting outside opinions, by having an outside investigation as well as a military police investigation. If there is wrongdoing, it will be dealt with in the appropriate way.

As a former member of the military, the hon. member should know about the military justice system and respect it because he supported it for years while he was a member of the armed forces.

Copyright

[Gaston Leroux, Bloc, Richmond—Wolfe, QC]

Mr. Speaker, heritage department officials have announced phase I of the copyright bill for mid-April. It was time. The cultural community has been waiting a long while for this bill to be tabled. One might wonder, however, what price the minister has paid to have this bill approved by her caucus.

My question is for the heritage minister. Will she confirm that the copyright legislation will be tabled in mid-April, and can she assure us that it will recognize neighbouring rights in a real and concrete manner, not just symbolically?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Canadian Heritage]

Mr. Speaker, I already announced before my officials appeared before the heritage committee that I intended to table the bill in question after Easter, at which time the hon. member opposite will be able to examine it.

[Gaston Leroux, Bloc, Richmond—Wolfe, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary.

Can the minister promise us that she will not take advantage of this being a new copyright bill to add exceptions, thus limiting the rights of our creators?

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Canadian Heritage]

Mr. Speaker, I am impatiently awaiting a reaction from the hon. member across the way, who should perhaps be celebrating the fact that, after ten years of another government, we are able to go ahead with a bill that is important because, for the first time in the history of Canada, the rights of artists and producers are recognized.

Canadian Security Intelligence Service

[Val Meredith, Reform, Surrey—White Rock—South Langley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Solicitor General of Canada accused me of not knowing about the former CSIS employee's departure from the service, yet today he is quoted in the media saying that he is unaware of the circumstances surrounding the individual's departure.

Let me tell him what really happened. The service forced him into retirement more than two months ago but granted him full pension.

Can the minister explain why he failed to provide this information to the House when he was given chances to do it?