Debates of April 25th, 1996

Goods And Services Tax

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, on December 10, 1991, the Prime Minister said, when he was the Leader of the Opposition, and I quote: "People will believe in us when we say we are going to eliminate the GST". A little further on, he spoke of his government: "Ours will be an honest government that will call a spade a spade, and people will believe in it".

Does the Prime Minister realize that the crisis of confidence in his government currently brewing across Canada arises from his own words as Leader of the Opposition and that the only way to re-establish any sort of confidence would be to follow the example of the Minister of Finance and the Deputy Prime Minister and apologize to Canadians?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I have just said we would have preferred a simpler system, more easily and quickly put in place. This is what the Minister of Finance has said as well.

I am not about to apologize, when I can rise in the House, pick up a text-one I have read here seven or eight times-in which we said the solution was a tax harmonized with the provinces, which would bring in the same revenues, because the government cannot afford to lose revenues right now.

This is just what we told our fellow Canadians we would do. I make no apologies for doing what is in the red book.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, with the Prime Minister hiding behind the red book since yesterday, are we to understand that, in future, the contents of the red book take precedence over the words of the Prime Minister?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister is reiterating what is in the red book, so there is no problem. We drew up a detailed political program. We worked on it for months and months. We chose a text we wrote ourselves. There is no discrepancy between the red book, myself and the Minister of Finance, because the member who worked with me on the red book is now the Minister of Finance.

[Yvan Loubier, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Speaker, we will scrap the GST-those were the words of the Prime Minister during the 1993 campaign. The Liberal government has made the unilateral decision to commit more than 90 per cent of the Canadian population to a semblance of GST reform, one which will be very costly, far more than the $961 million called for in the agreement.

British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Ontario and Quebec were not consulted, but they will pay for this outrageous cosmetic action taken in a pretence of meeting the commitment on which the Prime Minister and the Liberal Party of Canada have reneged.

Will the Minister of Finance admit that he has gone beyond the usual mechanisms of consultation to commit all Quebecers and all Canadians to a politically motivated compensation payment to the maritimes of close to $1 billion, without anyone having any say whatsoever on the matter?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, we have had numerous discussions with the ministers of finance in the other provinces concerning harmonization of the sales taxes. We have made offers, not only to the three provinces who accepted, but also to Prince Edward Island, Manitoba and Saskatchewan. We have held discussions with the other provinces to explain the reasons why the formula applied to this or that one.

We used exactly the same approach as when we passed on to Quebec $120 million for the Atlantic groundfish strategy. We used exactly the same approach when we passed on to Quebec $75 million after elimination of the freight subsidy. The federal government accepted its responsibilities for a very great structural change.

[Yvan Loubier, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Speaker, if they want to keep talking about the GST, let us talk about it. When the GST was harmonized, Quebec did not see a red cent. That is the reality.

What is being asked of the Minister of Finance today is not all that difficult. He is being asked to stay on the path of integrity, the integrity he has shown this week, in acknowledging that this agreement with the maritimes on the GST will cost far more to Quebecers and to Canadians than the $961 billion in compensation projected, for under the agreement, equalization will kick in automatically after four years, so the government's political deal will continue to be a costly one.

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member does not, unfortunately, understand how the equalization system works. It depends on fiscal capacity, not the taxes collected by a province, but its fiscal capacity.

So, right at the beginning, there will be a slight drop in equalization payments to the Atlantic provinces. Eventually, with the growth of economic activity and with job creation, there will be another drop. This is good for the Atlantic economy. The hon. member is, unfortunately, in error.

I would like to quote Mr. Landry, the Quebec Minister of Finance. From a strictly taxation point of view, speaking of the harmonization with the Atlantic provinces, Mr. Landry said: "This is good news, because more provinces will have a VAT in future".

Somalia Inquiry

[Jim Hart, Reform, Okanagan—Similkameen—Merritt, BC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of National Defence.

The testimony before the Somalia inquiry makes it quite clear that General Boyle knew about his department's plans to tamper with, alter and destroy documents related to the Somalia affair. This latest testimony seriously undermines the minister, who time after time has defended Boyle in the House.

Will the minister now agree to ask General Boyle to stand down until the Somalia inquiry determines his role in this cover-up?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, we have covered this issue a number of times in the past couple of weeks.

I will not comment on any evidence presented at the inquiry. I will not engage in any public debate. The inquiry is to determine the truth of all the facts presented to it and all the evidence. It will do this in short order.

With respect to the chief of defence staff, he certainly is doing his job. He is doing it well and he will continue to do his job. I ask the hon. member to allow the Chief of defence staff the courtesy all Canadians expect, which is to allow him to go to the commission and to give his position.

[Jim Hart, Reform, Okanagan—Similkameen—Merritt, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the minister does not want to comment. That is fine because, quite frankly, Canadians have no confidence in anything the minister says anyway.

The minister tried to distance himself from senior officials' attempts to cover up Somalia documents. Yet a staff officer for the Minister of National Defence was part of the Somalia working group.

It is inconceivable to Canadians that the minister was not briefed about the scheme hatched by the public affairs branch of his department to alter Somalia documents and obstruct access to information requests.

What did the minister know about this attempted cover-up? When did he know it? Was he a pawn or a player?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, by the tone, demeanour and substance of the hon. member's question he certainly is not a player in the House for reliable questioning.

The subset of hearings over the next couple of weeks will deal with these the questions of the public affairs matter. Every question the hon. member has posed in the House will be answered in the appropriate way at the commission before those impartial commissioners. That is where Canadians expect to get the answers.

[Jim Hart, Reform, Okanagan—Similkameen—Merritt, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of National Defence has placed himself right in the middle of the Somalia scandal.

The minister's department altered and destroyed documents on his watch. The minister recommended a chief of defence staff who was, by his own admission, aware of the plan to deliberately tamper with evidence.

The minister's own staff officer was part of the Somalia working group. It is time the minister came clean with Canadians. The Minister of National Defence is responsible to Parliament for these errors in judgment. Will he do the honourable thing and resign?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I was worried because the hon. member has not asked me to resign in the last few days. I took that to mean something.

Again I have to assert that the only thing I am in the middle of is getting at the truth. The government wants the truth in this matter. We have established the inquiry. We have taken our responsibility by establishing the inquiry. We have a terms of reference which has never been challenged, which talks in the language used by the hon. member, "cover-up", "destruction of documents". All of that is in the terms of reference. The commission has the terms of reference to do the job, to get the answers. It will do it and it will do it soon.

[Suzanne Tremblay, Bloc, Rimouski—Témiscouata, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of National Defence.

We learned that the chief of defence staff approved a plan to tamper with documents critical to the Somalia inquiry. His lawyer excused General Boyle, citing his failing memory, and I quote:

"When you are talking about something which happened many years ago, your memory may not be as clear".

Fortunately, his lawyer added: "He now remembers". The documents turned over to the commission allowed the general to recover his memory.

Considering that the military police's report that was given to the commission exonerated General Boyle, is the minister going to ask the military police to alter its report in the light of these new facts?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I have already answered these questions, but I must point out that it is not proper for me, as a minister, to comment on the testimonies heard daily by the commission. It is not appropriate.

The military police has reopened its investigation in view of the new documents which surfaced. I think this is a normal process.

The military police have reopened the investigation. Obviously they had an obligation to this, as did the information commissioner. All these matters will be discussed at the inquiry. That is the forum for the answers.

[Suzanne Tremblay, Bloc, Rimouski—Témiscouata, QC]

Mr. Speaker, given the seriousness of the allegations regarding General Boyle, does the minister not think that he should immediately relieve the general of his duties, at least until the inquiry is completed?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, once again, I have already answered this question and the answer is no.

Goods And Services Tax

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Beaver River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, on October 18, 1993 the Deputy Prime Minister promised Canadians on national television: "If the GST is not abolished under a Liberal government I will resign".

Today in a press conference she said: "Making a fast lipped comment in the middle of an election campaign should not put me in a position to resign".

Which way is it? If you make a promise, you make; do not break it. Will the Deputy Prime Minister resign right now?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, she has said she does not intend to resign because we are meeting the commitments in the red book, and she campaigned on the red book.

If we want to quote what people said in the past, after what the hon. member for Beaver River did yesterday, I quote what she said in 1991 or 1992: "The behaviour in the Chamber just drives me wild. I taught grade eight for too many years to think this sort of behaviour is cute". I guess she is now in grade seven.

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Beaver River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I stand by what I have said and I stand by what I have done. There is one place for the red book because it simply has not been completed.

Yesterday the Prime Minister said the Liberals have kept 75 per cent of the red book promises. That is not true. We have gone through the numbers. Of 157 promises made in the red book, 37 have been fulfilled; 23.5 per cent. That is shameful.

On the campaign trail the Deputy Prime Minister told the voters of Hamilton East and every other Canadian: "I have already said personally and very directly that if the GST is not abolished I will resign". It is fine that she thinks I may throw things around, but I know one thing: the voters of Hamilton East will throw her out in the next election. They want to know, will she resign?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I believe I was right a minute ago when I said she was in grade seven. She does not know how to add. She should look at page 111 of the red book. It is all there and it is very simple; all the cuts we said we were to make and all the programs we were to implement.

She will be surprised but she will probably have to wait until she is in grade nine to understand.

Coast Guard

[Yvan Bernier, Bloc, Gaspé, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans.

The marine shipping industry is very important to Montreal's economy. Today, the Conseil régional de développement de l'Île de Montréal, the City of Montreal, the minister of state responsible for Montreal and the Montreal Chamber of Commerce have joined in condemning the user fee policy the minister intends to apply to Coast Guard services.

Does the minister not agree that imposing a fee structure without first assessing its economic impact could have a devastating effect on Montreal's marine industry, which creates more than 14,000 direct and indirect jobs and generates $1.25 billion in economic benefits?

[Fred Mifflin, Liberal, Minister of Fisheries and Oceans]

Mr. Speaker, I agree that all the shipping industries are very important to the economy of Canada.

What we are merely asking is that we expect them to pay a user fee for public facilities provided by the public at taxpayers' expense. This user fee is reasonable. It is less than one tenth of one per cent of the total value of the cargoes. It is less than 3 per cent of voyage costs. It is less than 10 per cent of the services provided.

While there are some differences about how the fee should be paid, it is safe to say most of the industries that have been consulted and that have appeared before the standing committee, while they do not particularly want to pay the fees, are prepared to pay their fair share of the public cost.

[Yvan Bernier, Bloc, Gaspé, QC]

I will give the minister a second chance to answer my question, Mr. Speaker. Does the minister recognize that, by imposing user fees on aid to marine navigation, he runs the risk of diverting marine traffic to ports on the east coast of the U.S. and on the Mississippi, at the expense of the port of Montreal, thus undermining its role as a North American shipping hub?